Philco 16/16b
 

Picked this up at a yard sale Saturday...And it was HEAVY...

Tubes all tested well, chassis label says 16. whats left of the tube chart says 16b...

Hoping the voice coil is okay as the cone is complete doo doo...

what are your experiences with overhauling this model??

The riders seems a bit hard to follow, is there a better schematic??

Lend me your input... :)

SR

Your Philco is from the late 1920s between 1927-1929 and with as crispy looking as your speaker is you'll likely either need to source a new cone and replace the old cone assembly yourself (which will be a pain seeing as this is an early paper cone speaker) or try and source a new speaker (even harder because they don't show up that often on ebay). I don't have any experience personally with overhauling pre-WWII radios but from what I've read and heard they can be kind of tricky because sometimes the capacitors for the tuner assembly were potted in a bakelite box that was packed with tar (Philco was especially notorious for this)and this can be quite tricky to handle.

With as bad of condition as this unit is in I would of passed on it because of the fact that this unit will require a lot more work and effort to refurbish than its worth.
I had to do this recently when a local antique mall had a late 1920s RCA tabletop radio for sale in their shop for $15 which I thought that was a bargain until I saw the condition of the cabinet and the guts, the cabinet had been water damaged severely to the point that the veneer was peeling off the cabinet and the guts where severely damaged by mice and deteriorated wire insulation among other things which I had not the time nor expertise to deal with so I ended up passing on it.

Although if you have more experience in woodworking and speaker repair and have the patience to replace old deteriorated wire then you did fine in saving this unit.
But since I've only been working on antique radios for about 10 years as a side hobby and I know nothing about how to repair veneer work on a radio cabinet and I don't have the patience it
takes to remove and replace hundreds of feet worth of deteriorated/mice chewed wires in a radio I would never even attempt to restore a radio like this.

Just my 2 cents worth.

The Philco 16/16B is a great radio that will provide superb reception once properly restored. They are a little more work because of the bakelite blocks but its not difficult to restore just maybe a little time consuming. Worth the effort without a doubt.

Gregb

I agree that these early cathedral radios are excellent performers when properly restored (and great DX'ers as well with the right amount of wire extended out the window) but as I was saying that for the experienced radio restorer this is a great unit but for people who are just getting into radio restoration these might not be a very good unit to attempt to restore as a beginner (not familar with his expertise level which is why I said what I did as a general statement).

Rest easy guys, NOT my FIRST RADIO... :D

Did a 37 Delco R1128 that was molested and half assed and got it going.. :)

Looks like i have the 16-121 variety because of the #80 rectifier... The cabinet is in pretty good shape (no peeling) As long as parts are clearly marked, i should be okay.. Hoping the speaker damage is limited to the cone (center still has its flex) Perhaps i can sacrifice a speaker and glue a new cone onto the old setup..

I admit the bakelite blocks have me concerned, havent dismantled it yet, how many blocks am i gonna encounter in this unit? anyone have pics? I see a large rectangular can screwed on the back of the chassis, i presume this one is "tar potted"... Sure doesnt look like an e-cap. Perhaps its the filter condenser bank?

My challenge might be the riders copy on NOSTALGIA, kinda hard to make out some of the notes in the drawings, but im trying...

Thanks for the input and keep em coming, Much appreciated :thmbsp:

SR

1933 11 tube all-wave radio in 5 bands. One of Philco's largest table radios. Includes Type One shadow tuning meter. Has interstation quieting on early models. Will need new tuning cap grommets. Very sensitive! Vernier dual knob gear tuning. Expensive when new and when properly restored worth up to $700. A keeper!

You definitely have a keeper there when it is restored. I just restored one about 2 months ago. There's something like 14 Bakelite block caps under the chassis but they are simple to rebuild. For the most part you can leave them connected to the circuit and just loosen them by removing the mounting screw. Heat up the body on all sides except the tar side to soften the tar. I have a tool I made with a piece of brazing rod that just slips through the eyelet rivets that hold the terminals. Once the tar is soft enough I poke the tool through the center eyelet and push the guts out the back. Finish cleaning up the inside and the terminals and re-install new caps.

The large filter can is easy to gut also. Probably easier than the Bakelite blocks. The other 2 electrolytics I cut open, gutted, and stuffed. One of them is a wet type electrolytic and mine was still wet.

The worst part on that radio will be replacing the tuning capacitor grommets and the rubber drives for the tuning control. I came across a YouTube video series someone did on restoring a 16B and they show how they handled the capacitor grommets. For the drives I cut a rubber o-ring and re-glued it around the drive hubs after removing the old hardened rubber.

Your 2 cents worth isn't worth quite that!
The Philco 16 series is a 1935 or '36 model and a very impressive set.
A very high performance 11 tube chassis.

I had for a while a Delco R1128 as well but mine was in such bad shape that i didn't end up getting mine going sadly enough. I ended up using it for parts (salvaged the tubes outs of it).

I agree Dave, that was a very dim evaluation of a high quality set that may need relatively easy work as the cabinet appears as though it may be in good condition which is often the hardest thing to fix. Done several 16's myself, with a little patience and good work habits, they are not that difficult to do. And seeing how the owner already has the set, there is no reason not to use this set with the Bakelite blocks as a great learning experience.

.

+1

Hundreds of feet of wire in a table radio?...Lol come on, seriously?

Those block caps are easy...With the right screw driver I can chip the guts out without heat in under a minute.



Most block cap era Philcos I only use the schematic to determine the pin-out of the ant and osc coils*. Just change the lytics, re-stuff the block caps using one of the internet references to determine their contents/pinout and if the ant and osc coils are good the chassis should work. Often the single layer ant and or osc coils are open (2 of 3 60 chassis I've serviced, and 2 of 2 80 chassis were open)...Often the break is near an end so deleting the corroded turn or two and reconnecting the end will fix it, but I've had some where the whole winding was full of opens....Those I just count the turns, remove the old and rewind the same number of turns with Radio Shack phono pickup wire (always works like a charm:thmbsp:).

You dont by chance have the speaker still? i have one unit that one was destroyed in transit.. :)

SR

Sadly no, I don't have the speaker, the speaker on mine ended up getting trashed when something fell on it, because at the time I was living with my parents and I had put the speaker and the guts of the radio in my closet in my bedroom and something fell off the top shelf in my closet and put a huge hole in the speaker (which was part of the reason why I scrapped out the radio because at the time I didn't know how to repair speakers and I didn't realize you could repair them) I do have the tubes from it though yet if you need any tubes, and I even have the tube shields from it, including the tuning eye tube shield.

Well some of the old radios I've worked on seemed like they had hundreds of feet of wire in them, especially when you have to replace every single wire in the unit that was chewed up by mice or the rubber insulation inside the cloth outer insulation was crumbling and exposing wire.
Actually if you count all of the hair thin copper wire in the IF cans in these old radios then yes technically these radios do have hundreds of feet of wire in them, someone on here mentioned that one of the IF cans in one of these radios has as much as 1,000 feet of wire in a single IF Transformer winding and most of these old radios had as many as 5 IF Transformers in them (especially the higher end models).
So I'm not really that far off by saying hundreds of feet of wire in an old radio, yes I agree that the interconnect wires on the underside of the radio chassis maybe doesn't amount to 100' (but close though in some of the higher end models) but like I said when you count the wire used in IF coil windings and the power transformer, and the speaker's output transformer and voice coil, then yes the radios easily can have hundreds of feet of wire in them.

Good Grief!

.

I didn't say he couldn't I was just saying if it were me (and since I don't have much experience with pre-war radios mostly post war radios) I would of passed on it because from what I saw in the picture the speaker was trashed to the point that there was nothing left of it say for 2 pieces hanging on by a thread so to speak (and repairing that speaker or sourcing a "new" one can be quite difficult especially trying to source another speaker like it had in there originally.
I know for a fact that my 1932 vintage Cathedral radio I have had a damaged speaker that thankfully was still fully intact enough for a simple unbleached coffee filter paper repair but if I wouldn't of been able to of been repaired, I looked to see if another speaker like it could of been sourced just in case, and sure enough it couldn't, because of it being a 1930s Utah speaker and those are rarer than hen's teeth.

The Grille Cloth is also missing which if you don't know what it had in there orginally then it can be hard to get the right grille cloth for the unit.

The cabinet from what I could see while no veneer is peeling off, the original finish appears to be shot which trying to refinish these old Cathedral radio cabinets can be tricky especially the fancier ones because you have to try and get the finish to go on evenly within all of those little crevices in the moulding without it dripping and even stripping those cabinets can be a pain because of those various crevices in the fancy moulding.
Anyways I was just saying that if it were me I would of passed on something that were in that kind of condition because with my expertise level (which is pretty much non-existent when it comes to working on pre-war radios) I wouldn't of bothered with it unless it was known to be an extremely easy radio to service.

That's all I was saying, I wasn't implying that it was a bad radio or that the radio wasn't a high end radio or whatever, I was just saying that in my position if I saw a radio like that that had a severely damaged speaker and no grille cloth and unknown condition guts, I wouldn't personally bother with it.

Referring back to my experience with seeing a late 1920s RCA Table Radio (Tombstone style) at an antique mall for an extremely good price but then it was because the cabinet was trashed (severe water damage and severe veneer peeling issues with the cabinet alone).

Then it looked like the guts had mice living in it several times in its life as the chassis was severely corroded by mice pee and wires were chewed clear through in critical areas including in the IF Cans, and the original cloth cord was pretty much gone and the dial string was broken and the tuning capacitor was seized up (you couldn't turn the tuning capacitor with your hands) which is why I had to pass up on the radio even though it may very well have been an extremely valuable unit once fixed up.
But to even restore that unit one would of had to sink more money into the unit than it might of been worth.

And the OP was asking for people's opinions on the unit, and so I gave my opinion on it.

Easy guys--- eeeasy

I value ALL the input ive received so far.... The UPS and the DOWNS.. :)

I admit feeling a bit over my head in this one and a bit apprehensive after watching the youtube videos posted, But i have to admit the end result, looked pretty cool.. Seen some things about the radio that i wasnt aware existed... The tuning eye (shadow meter) is pretty neat setup, And the 2 speed tuning is cool...

I now understand the BAKELITE CAPS that were discussed, i was expecting round paper caps with clear uf and volt values marked, this may be a challenge to me on part#s and schematic drawings, (some hard to read)..

Ive used the faucet washers to hold the tuning gang in place before :D

Hoping my scattered shop and tools are up to this task... Meanwhile, gonna go watch the series on youtube.. :)

Thanks again for your inputs..:thmbsp:

SR

IIRC Philco repair bench had a good table of block cap part numbers with an explanation of their contents (my go-to resource), but I just checked and I can't find it, along with a good portion of their site...What happened to them?



There are many places that specialize in re-coning speakers. If the voice and field (if not PM type) coils have continuity, that is a good option.

If the speaker is beyond professional help there is always a way to spec a new one (of any vintage including brand new). The most important thing is geometry and diameter. If it is the same mounting size you don't have to modify the cabinet, and there are ways to make it work electrically. Getting the same voice coil impedance is important to reusing the same audio output transformer, but there are ways around that. Speaker impedance matching transformers exist, and one can spec new audio output transformers by knowing/finding the plate impedance of the original and getting one that matches that to the impedance of the new speaker. If the original had a field coil you can use a PM type speaker and substitute the field coil in the power supply circuit with a power resistor or preferably a choke of similar impedance....Sure it is part of the power supply filter circuit, but there is a lot of fudge factor in those designs, and if you've got some spare parts to play with it can be arrived at easily with experimentation. Knowing theory of operation, and associated maths helps the process greatly and helps ensure it will work best the first try.

It is good to know your skill level, but challenging yourself, learning new techniques, and approaching things by not assuming things are impossible/impractical will help you grow...Thirst for knowledge helps too.

...That said if you told me you were captinclock back under a new user name, I'd believe you...Your writing style/personality feels rather similar.:scratch2:

Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.walkingitaly.com/radio/cr...004/philco.pdf


Hmmm...:scratch2:

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And what if I was? Would you try to have me banned again?

CaptainClock mentioned many times that he has Autism, ADD, and ADHD, which with that said it makes it hard for people like that to communicate what they want to say without sounding a little standoffish because that's just the way they are its an issue that he was trying to work on every day and its tough to try and say something (especially on the internet) when you can't see the person's facial expressions to go with what they're saying.

So of course if someone said something about an old radio that they thought looked like it was going to be a little tricky to work on but then someone else came along and read what was being said and took that comment as being a mean nasty comment when the comment wasn't meant to be originally because the person couldn't see the facial expression of the person when the comment was initially posted, then of course there's going to be some problems.

That being said Levi (aka formerly CaptainClock on here) has had lots of trouble with cyber bullying and trolls on just about every single online forum he's ever been on.
The worst one was when he was a part of an art forum called deviantArt for a while and that website which was supposedly supposed to be a "friendly place for aspiring artists to hang out and share their artwork with others", was actually quite the opposite of what they claimed their website was, and he ended up in the end having a young woman and some of her friends on that website try and set him up to look like a pedophile (even though he isn't one) by hacking into his facebook page and computer and posting inappropriate pictures on his facebook page and what not just because he was attenpting to make friends with other fellow forum members so that he could have some people he could ask about his artwork.

Now that being said you can kind of understand why he takes offense to comments that people make that sound threatening to him.

So, are you saying that you are not he who was once named "Captain Clock"?

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Read into it what you will, but I'm going leave it at that, and nothing else. I'll let you guys figure out who I am from my message.

For the grille cloth I used the Whiskey Rayon pattern sold by Richmond Designs. I thought he used to sell a smaller size than 18x24 but maybe that is what I had bought.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182622096389

Personal opinions aside (I was not the one who banned clock and did not mind him when he was not stirring up sh!t) it is against the forum rules to create multiple user accounts, and IIRC against the rules to return under a new user name when permanently banned...This transgression which you seem to be admitting to will likely result in you getting permanently banned again.

A certain well known/liked Michigan member was nearly banned over creating a second comedy account (sanjarali) once.

Rules are rules.

That said I'm issuing you a one day ban while I discuss whether or not to allow this return with the fellow moderators. If the others don't say "make it permanent" consider yourself lucky and be careful how you post. A certain conduct of discourse is expected here, and regardless of your circumstances if you make too much of a nuisance of yourself anywhere you will eventually get the boot...It is just how life works.

EDIT: Caribou Gone! :D https://youtu.be/M3-51DhOzHE?t=2m5s

Nice find! Someone else with a Philco 16B made a series of videos documenting the restoration of his set. They're on YouTube and I'd highly recommend watching all 30(!) of them.

With regards to your speaker, I just wrapped up a Philco 43B that has the same or a very similar speaker to yours. It was chewed up by rodents so after verifying the field coil was OK, I sent it off to be reconed. It only cost about $60, and I was very happy with the results.

Here's the link to part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDlI4cRlJKc&t=1s

EDIT: Just realized the link was posted earlier by Sean...should've read the thread more thoroughly!

Yeah ive been browsing them :)

Some neat features when its done. Some of it looks confusing, he jumps around a bit :D

SR

I talked to an old-time radio repairman, who had just finished a mid-30's Philco radio. I inquired if he replaced the bakelite block caps, He replied, that they never went bad. :scratch2:
I read, that they were "vacuum impregnated", so they did have a long life, but after 80+ years???
I use my $8.88 Harbor Freight heat gun and heat them a bit and the guts pop right out, with little effort. :thmbsp:

I've had a set work with it's original block caps....Albeit with terrible distortion, which changing those caps cured.

Paper caps are paper caps, even the best eventually fail. I'd bring a set with original block caps up on a variac any day, but I would not make it a regular player till those caps are re-stuffed.

Amen to that. At first I took the "wait and see" approach to the chocolate blocks, but after two of them failed during bench testing, I just restuffed them all. As you and others mentioned, it was super easy to do and the end result looks factory.

I used a similar, but slightly different, pattern from Richmond Designs on my restoration. I ended up with a ton of leftover grill cloth as well, but I don't see that as a problem! :thmbsp:

You'd be amazed by the sheer amount of repro parts out there for these radios. I was able to find repro tuner grommets for mine, as well as a new frame for the grill cloth and a knob for the tone control. I think you can even buy a whole cabinet if yours is too far gone... :eek:

FWIW - I replaced the standard Philco chevron pattern on my 501X console, which uses the model 16 chassis. I got it from Antique Radio Supply but not sure if anyone makes that pattern yet. Radiodaze has some parts like chassis and tuning condenser grommets IIRC.

No Philco is restored until those cap blocks are done. My super-fast method: "nip" the internal cap wires from above, remove the 1/4 inch screws, spin the bottom upward without disconnecting anything if possible, heat and push with a small rod thru the middle top terminal rivet, the cap will pop right out so you can put the new one in. beware some of these cap blocks also contain resistors.

This radio is one precision unit, will sound amazing but nothing short of a full recapping is needed. I have had the 501 for almost 30 years and it worked on original caps initially. I sent my 501x's 12" speaker to Sound Remedy for a quality re-cone job.

I just cited a statement what the old gent told me, not that I agreed with it.
The last Philco, I did, I restuffed the bakelite blocks.

I bought a rubber grommet assortment from H-F. A lot of them were the smaller sizes, that could be used for tuning condenser mounts. :scratch2:

Watching the youtube offerings... Feeling pretty confident the block caps will be a messy but fun experience.. :D

Do any of the philco sites carry block by block capacitor replacement spec sheets?
I dont mind doing the messy work, but i definitely dont want to second guess about what exact cap and resistor i will be restuffing them with.. And i dont mind paying for the paperwork if necessary... :)

SR

You may want to look for a copy of Ray Bintliff's book.

http://www.antiqueradio.com/bookrev1_12-96.html

I collect Philco's and the book Jim mentions is a must have to work on these radios.

Gregb

OK lookin for the book... :)

Does any of the parts websites sell custom rebuild kits for this or will it be a self made cap list like some of my last repairs?? Is there a bulk kit by justradios i can get that will cover the demand??

SR

Most tube gear don't have model specific cap kits. Bob's capacitor does sell a generic $20 kit with 5-10 of each commonly used value in most radios.
If you do a good amount of tube repair you'll find it is cheaper and easier to go on Mouser, Allied, and or Digikey order up ~25-100 of each value of paper cap in 630V rating, a good assortment of lytics, store them in a small hardware organizing drawer case in a sorted manner and keep a stock.

I never have to take stock of the number of caps in a set (unless I'm quoting a customer a parts cost) or make a small order....Also most of the big parts houses cut you BIG discounts on bulk orders....Add to that the $10-30 fixed shipping cost is a smaller percent of the total order cost when you make a $1-200 bulk order (you could save $100 on shipping alone just by ordering 10 sets worth of caps at once instead of in 10 separate orders).
When you've worked on as many tube TVs+radios as I have you get a feel for what values go fast and what you can keep smaller stock of.

Hard book to find so far..... Cheat sheet anyone??? :D

SR

I can't seem to find the site I used to get the values for my caps, but this looks like it has the info. Be sure to click the "Next Subject" link at the bottom as well:

http://www.antiqueradios.com/philcorestorer/page9.html


For restuffing them, I used radial Wima (German made) caps. Some of the chocolate blocks have resistors in them too. They're just a piece of wire wrapped on a strip of paper and don't seem to go bad.

I was largely able to restuff the chocolate blocks without removing them from the circuit. I unsoldered the leads coming out of the chocolate block, unscrewed the screw holding it in place, heated it up, and pushed the guts out the back with a dental pick. In most cases I could pull the block far enough forward to completely push the guts out.

Restuffing is as simple as inserting the new cap in the back, guiding its leads through the holes in the top, and soldering them in place.

That is a good one, I got it just a year ago. See this http://www.antiqueradio4.com/Merchan...ory_Code=Radio