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-   -   New '60s Philco Roundie (http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=267813)

Hagstar 09-29-2016 07:13 AM

New '60s Philco Roundie
 
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Well in June I saw this with a SOLD sticker at our local recycle store. At the time I wasn't much impressed but after posting on Facebook about it I decided to frequent the store two or three times a weeks the rest of the summer- like lightening was going to strike twice (we had 2 stations only part color here in the early '60s). But then what reappeared last Fri. but this same early '60s Philco roundie with amp and original turntable (I had thought it was just storage, didn't look at it closely due to the SOLD sticker in June). They had determined to put it aside and research it but decided it was rare but not too valuable. SO they suggested $50- and it's mine now.

They informed me the possible collector interest was well known to them for anything odd like this. I never ever see color sets this old in the "field" here, they are rare enough in NYC or Boston areas where stations were plentiful.

I'm told this uses transistors in the signal chain and isn't a CTC clone, and is a 1966 product? The yellow edge makes me suspect a Zenith-made CRT. Any info before I begin tearing into it (possibly mid-Oct) would be appreciated. 6813931 is what is marked as a model number as far as I can tell.

Electronic M 09-29-2016 08:55 AM

Awesome score!

Philco had loss leader roundys into the early 70's IIRC. I think that is post 1968 as the control layout looks newer than the 1968 models to me....It is real odd that it is in a combo since I thought Philco only sold them as cheap stripped models primarily in metal cabinets by then.

It definitely has a Zenith style cat...You can cut those off hot or cool with a guitar string, peel the glue, clean and reattach the glass. I have a good removal vid on my photobucket account (that I've posted a few times).

DaveWM 09-29-2016 09:03 AM

If its the late model with the SS tuner, it will make a nice pic assuming the CRT is good. Weak spot is the HV fly, runs very hot, uses some pulse feed back to regulate the HV, rather than the more traditional shunt tube. They touted it as very high power 27kv for a nice bright picture which it does have.
Not sure why but mine has the best dynamic convergence of any set I own, think others here have the same experience.

miniman82 09-29-2016 04:52 PM

Yup, same experience here. I've had many roundies, none have had better convergence than the Philco. So close, I'd call it nearly perfect. No fringing what so ever.

Hagstar 10-01-2016 02:31 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic M (Post 3170857)
Awesome score!
It is real odd that it is in a combo since I thought Philco only sold them as cheap stripped models primarily in metal cabinets by then.

Here's an illuminating ad-

tom.j.fla 10-01-2016 02:43 PM

Have a combo in storage with date code 11 71 so sold as 1972 model. Has bright deep color and is a hybrid with that PITA color decoder chip. When stored was working and looked like it was just unboxed. All the best Tom.J

EdKozk2 10-01-2016 08:59 PM

Hagstar,
Did you look insde the set to find a chassis number ? That way you can get the correct Sam's folder. There seem to be many variations of this model from June of 1964 onward. The crt may be a 21FJP22. I am curious too. Nice find.
Ed

zenithfan1 10-02-2016 03:32 AM

All this talk of perfect convergence makes me wanna get my Philco roundie going. Yours is a great looking set btw.

Electronic M 10-02-2016 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagstar (Post 3171015)
Here's an illuminating ad-

Going by the control panels (same as my 1965' philco roundy) in that ad, that ad is from circa 64'-66' a time when I'd still expect roundy combos to be a common product.

The set the OP posted looks to be 1968-73 based on control panel aesthetics.

Hagstar 10-02-2016 01:45 PM

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Well I took the back off (chassis #7MT808) and tested the 21FJP22, red was low even running the filament an hour. But after the lowest level of rejuvenation it popped right up to balance with the other guns at the lower end of the green scale.

Here are some photos. At this point I take it I should remove all scanning related tubes, apply power ramping up to line voltage slowly looking for trouble, then reawaken horz then vert oscillators? What I did with my CTC4 was replace every 'lytic and paper cap before applying power but this is obviously mostly "brown dip" caps. Thanks for the feedback so far!

DaveWM 10-02-2016 03:47 PM

no need to recap, just give it a slow start with the horz out and vert out tubes pulled, power up slow, monitor the B+, stop the variac when it gets to about 375v, check cans for heat, if all good plug in the sweep tubes, monitor the horz out cathode for current and do a full power startup. Don't be surprised if the cathode current is somewhat high, like 230ma IIRC. get it as low as you can but be warned the fly runs hot. upping the contrast makes it run hotter IIRC. Lowering the HV will lower the cathode current, but may end up with not enough horz sweep. Its a bit of an odd ball with the feedback HV regulation.

here is a video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vKzh33VaWI

Hagstar 10-02-2016 04:44 PM

I take it I should pull the chassis to measure the horz output current? Or is there some sort of fitting, there appears to be such to the right of HO tube? Normally I'd make a test adapter but I have no Compactron stuff....SAMS not here yet.

John H.

EdKozk2 10-02-2016 10:39 PM

I found your TV chassis # 17MT80B in Sams 885-2. The set is dated May of 1967. The Sams' shows 220ma on the cathode of the 6KD6 horizontal output tube. The HO cathode is tied directly to ground. Grid #3 is also connected to the cathode. I didn't see any test point .

DaveWM 10-03-2016 06:49 AM

you can get test sockets for checking HO current, plug the socket in, the tube into the socked. It has test leads coming out that you hook the meter up to.

On mine I installed a small fuse holder with a 275ma fuse. Not sure I would bother doing that again, just something to make it easier to test really.

BTW there are LOTS of ideas on how to deal with 1st start ups. Some go with just plug in and watch for smoke to the more detailed monitoring of everything with very slow startup. Not saying there is a correct way, just different. IIRC the issues I ran into was some cracked solder joint on the color pcb where some high power resistors were. They stand off from the board quite a bit I presume to keep from cooking the pcb, you could tell they were a bit loose just by touching them. There were also some loose feeling sockets on some of the compactron tubes in that same area.

Hagstar 10-03-2016 07:50 AM

I may go with a simplified start up procedure as I strongly suspect the recycle store already powered this up, can't even be sure they used a variac.

Thanks again, will report.

Electronic M 10-03-2016 09:20 AM

Sometimes H out tube current test points are there but not indicated on the schematic.
If not present I like to add one as well as protection by placing an above chassis fuse holder in series with the H out cathode...The right fuse will protect it, and I can pull the fuse and replace it with a current meter to check current whenever I feel like it without need to pull the chassis to check.

DaveWM 10-03-2016 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagstar (Post 3171123)
I may go with a simplified start up procedure as I strongly suspect the recycle store already powered this up, can't even be sure they used a variac.

Thanks again, will report.

Right that's a good point, its often already been started cold full power. Sometimes you will find one with a badly disintegrated plug that clearly not been used in years.

Findm-Keepm 10-03-2016 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveWM (Post 3171121)
you can get test sockets for checking HO current, plug the socket in, the tube into the socked. It has test leads coming out that you hook the meter up to.

Pomona 2712, 2712A and EBY Cath-2 (interrupts pin 2) will work.

I don't have a GC/Walsco catalog that shows the one for the 6JS6/6KD6, but they probably made one.

DaveWM 10-03-2016 09:59 AM

ok now I remember, the HV is controlled by a horz bias pot which directly bias's the Horz out. So you adj the HV to about 25kv with that pot. The regulation takes place from feedback from the fly. The problem I ran into was the excessive heat (to the point of severe wax melting and even smoke) so adj the bias down to get the heat down resulted in under scanning of the crt. That was resolved with a HV disc cap across the yoke horz windings. Pretty mickey mouse fix that maybe was not the right thing to do. Perhaps it needed a new fly.. whatever just don't leave the set alone (good idea for any 50 year old color tube set). I think I adj to about 23kv

DavGoodlin 10-03-2016 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveWM (Post 3171133)
ok now I remember, the HV is controlled by a horz bias pot which directly bias's the Horz out. So you adj the HV to about 25kv with that pot. The regulation takes place from feedback from the fly. The problem I ran into was the excessive heat (to the point of severe wax melting and even smoke) so adj the bias down to get the heat down resulted in under scanning of the crt. That was resolved with a HV disc cap across the yoke horz windings. Pretty mickey mouse fix that maybe was not the right thing to do. Perhaps it needed a new fly.. whatever just don't leave the set alone (good idea for any 50 year old color tube set). I think I adj to about 23kv

Sylvania used feedback from the fly to regulate pulse amplitude to the HOT grid on this on their later tube and hybrid chassis. Didn't Motorola do it also?

Ill make sure to copy these notes into my "Philco Color TV service manual" a Tab book by Robert L Goodman. I have a 19" chassis version of this set and its fly runs hot.

Few color TVs had a tuning meter or tuning eye tube. The OP's model might have the tuning eye tube. Only GE had a tuning device on their 1967-68 color sets and Westinghouse had that on-screen bar graphic on that one-shot chassis before they quit making Tvs. otherwise, I never saw visual tuning devices on an RCA, Zenith, Mag etc

Hagstar 10-03-2016 03:29 PM

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This little terminal board with jumper seems like it may very well be a test point. Seems I will add a fuse in place of jumper if so.

Electronic M 10-03-2016 03:33 PM

Probably is the jumper (some continuity tests/circuit tracing should tell you for sure)...The picture is blurry enough that bigfoot ought to be in it. :D

Hagstar 10-04-2016 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavGoodlin (Post 3171138)
Few color TVs had a tuning meter or tuning eye tube. The OP's model might have the tuning eye tube.


I noted tonight on first fire up there is indeed an eye tube. No heating of filters, swear I hear horz sweep running yet no high voltage. The 6KD6 and most of the other tubes are Philco brand and look tired, I happen to have saved a couple NOS I came across for no other reason than they are pricey :)

The radio works, and phono cartridge but no motor action. But the whole combo looks remarkably unmolested, although as yet the TV chassis is filthy. SAMS is coming, today I got a Goodman Philco service manual from 1970.

John H.

philcophan 10-06-2016 08:56 AM

Nice find, John!!! My personal opinion, in those days, is that Philco sets produced THE most perfect flesh tones, hands down, of ANY set out there...!!! I lusted after one as a kid, but it just wasn't in the cards... one day...

Jim

DavGoodlin 10-06-2016 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcophan (Post 3171265)
Nice find, John!!! My personal opinion, in those days, is that Philco sets produced THE most perfect flesh tones, hands down, of ANY set out there...!!! I lusted after one as a kid, but it just wasn't in the cards... one day...

Jim

Much of Philco advertising and shop signs had a butterfly to highlight this. Ads invite you to "take the face test" and compare fleshtones. :thmbsp:

These use some 6BL8s instead of all 6GH8s, though there is lots of both in there. The "SS" on the front refers to the tuner and IF strip only, mine had good reception before DT but it hates signal from the set-top box.

Worked on one of these wayyy back in HS VoTech and it did look good when we sent it on to a needy family IIRC. These were also loss leader sets for like $299, yes?

Can you get a neon lamp to light holding it near the 6KD6 cap? Watch for a shorted 3AW2 also, pull the cap then look for arcs. Hope its not the Fly. Think I have a leftover diagram for a replacement fly

Steve D. 10-06-2016 01:28 PM

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The Philco "Butterfly" & "Face Test" ads:

-Steve D.

Hagstar 10-06-2016 05:07 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DavGoodlin (Post 3171282)
. Hope its not the Fly. Think I have a leftover diagram for a replacement fly

Why for me is it always the fly? It sure don't look healthy, and indeed reads open. Tripler time again perhaps. BUT my old pal Shango066 on youtube claims one can easily substitute another fly. 3AW2 is shattered at base, note soot.

The horz. output section seems to be intact but fly "tire" is open. But there's no horz. output voltage either so without a high voltage fuse what's also blown up I wonder?

Electronic M 10-07-2016 06:37 AM

A good place to start is by measuring base voltages on the H output tube. If the osc. is dead or malfunctioning(manifested in grid voltage), the screen bias network is damaged, or the cathode ground wire is open, then the output tube will not drive the fly properly. I'd change the HV rect and try to get the H out tube workin right. HV has a funny way of re-welding closed or bypassing small opens, and you might get lucky.
I'd be more concerned if it failed a ring test (granted you need the HV winding to ring it IIRC), or windings other than the HV were open.

DaveWM 10-07-2016 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagstar (Post 3171301)
Why for me is it always the fly? It sure don't look healthy, and indeed reads open. Tripler time again perhaps. BUT my old pal Shango066 on youtube claims one can easily substitute another fly. 3AW2 is shattered at base, note soot.

The horz. output section seems to be intact but fly "tire" is open. But there's no horz. output voltage either so without a high voltage fuse what's also blown up I wonder?

how are you checking the open on the fly? IIRC that is a little funky, like the tire HV is isolated from the rest of the windings with some high resistance power resistors. Start from the anode of the focus rectifier (pin 6 of the fly) to the plate lead for the HV tube. 540 ohms

Hagstar 10-08-2016 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveWM (Post 3171343)
Start from the anode of the focus rectifier (pin 6 of the fly) to the plate lead for the HV tube. 540 ohms

This reads a steady 109 megaohms.

John H.

rob Cashin 10-10-2016 06:45 AM

How did you make out on powering the set up?

Hagstar 10-10-2016 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob Cashin (Post 3171492)
How did you make out on powering the set up?

The flyback has been cooked to open, see previous posts. Waiting for tubes for more testing.

John H.

miniman82 10-10-2016 09:38 AM

Take the tire off and see if the break is near the surface, if it is you might be able to repair it. If not, like you said you can always do the tripler mod.

DavGoodlin 10-12-2016 08:09 AM

The HV rect plate lead broke off of a 1955 GE flyback because it was super stiff and I was not careful pulling it off, where the 1B3 was outside the fly "can".

Wax was already crumbling off the tire so I was able to make a connection just a few turns short, use an exacto knife and hyper-eutectic solder. Shmutz with black RTV when done. I wish you good luck.

Radiotronman 10-17-2016 09:05 AM

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I've got a Philco roundie too and believe they have the most comparable picture to more modern sets. Great find and I wished mine had the eye tube. The mIssing control door seems to be common on these sets too.

Hagstar 10-30-2016 12:23 PM

Brought this Philco white elephant in from van finally and fired up by degrees with variac. Like in another thread- http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=253593 - my focus coil is blackened and began to mildly smoke. BUT I ordered a new Workman replacement from Talon (edit- not Frontier Electronics)!

WHY do these burn up is what I want to know.....

Findm-Keepm 10-30-2016 02:12 PM

Link to Frontier? My CTC16 smoked it's focus coil, and is now using my only replacement....I'd like to order one too.

Edit: My CTC16 set had a bad focus rectifier causing the focus coil to burn up, so I replaced it with a solid state one, but you never know...

Hagstar 10-30-2016 02:35 PM

Talon not Frontier sorry, and I seem to have purchased the only one but Playthings of the Past has a ctc15 one and a couple others.

http://www.talonix.com/shop/category.aspx?catid=34

Hagstar 10-31-2016 11:56 AM

Answering my own question- per a Philco repair manual focus coils on these models may have two "sharp" positions and using the wrong one may cause overheating.

Hagstar 10-31-2016 12:45 PM

And NOW Moyer Electronics is sending me a $50- NOS flyback!!!!! :banana: Already ordered a cheap tripler BUT this is much better.:yes:


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