K-cars

[MadMan]

Originally Posted by dieseljeep

At a little over 120K the timing belt snapped and trashed the engine. It was kind of one of those round-to-its.
Had a salvage yard engine installed and that one spun a bearing a month later. The car got junked! The replacement engine probably wasn't maintained very well.

That's a shame. He'd've been way better off just doing the head and valves on his engine. At least he knew what he was gonna get, opposed to a junk yard engine with "40k miles on it." Lying junk yarders. The number they claim is ALWAYS 40k!

Originally Posted by bgadow

I am very certain that the cause was not that of the typical Kia/Hyundai engine but of the typical Kia/Hyundai owner!

Damn right. I've rarely seen much in the way of mechanical issues with Kia/Hyundai.

[dieseljeep]

Originally Posted by MadMan

That's a shame. He'd've been way better off just doing the head and valves on his engine. At least he knew what he was gonna get, opposed to a junk yard engine with "40k miles on it." Lying junk yarders. The number they claim is ALWAYS 40k!



Damn right. I've rarely seen much in the way of mechanical issues with Kia/Hyundai.

With an interference engine, isn't there more damage to the engine than the just the head and valves? Possible damage to the piston faces or block.
BTW, salvage yard reported 88K miles on the engine.

[MadMan]

Originally Posted by dieseljeep

With an interference engine, isn't there more damage to the engine than the just the head and valves? Possible damage to the piston faces or block.

In my experience, VERY rarely. Most typically, two or so cylinder's valves just get bent aside (effectively making them stuck open), and maybe put a tiny ding on the top of the corresponding pistons. I think I may have seen one engine that had a hole poked in the piston, out of the countless broken timing belts I've seen. Long story short, if it's a fight between a piston and a valve, the piston wins.

[dieseljeep]

Originally Posted by MadMan

In my experience, VERY rarely. Most typically, two or so cylinder's valves just get bent aside (effectively making them stuck open), and maybe put a tiny ding on the top of the corresponding pistons. I think I may have seen one engine that had a hole poked in the piston, out of the countless broken timing belts I've seen. Long story short, if it's a fight between a piston and a valve, the piston wins.

I saw the former Kia owner Sunday, but forgot to ask him if he pulled the head to see how much damage was done to the original engine.
He pretty well knows his way around cars, but this winter seemed so long and cold, so who could blame him.

[maxhifi]

Originally Posted by MadMan

In my experience, VERY rarely. Most typically, two or so cylinder's valves just get bent aside (effectively making them stuck open), and maybe put a tiny ding on the top of the corresponding pistons. I think I may have seen one engine that had a hole poked in the piston, out of the countless broken timing belts I've seen. Long story short, if it's a fight between a piston and a valve, the piston wins.

Hmm, I've seen cars written off (by their owners) for this, when there was plenty of value left in the rest of the car. Maybe a good way to get a cheap car, if there's a little luck involved!

I guess it's becoming less relevant, with the industry moving away from timing belts. The main problem is how darn annoying front wheel drive cars are to work on.. I had the timing belt off in my RWD pickup in a few hours.

[MadMan]

Originally Posted by maxhifi

Hmm, I've seen cars written off (by their owners) for this, when there was plenty of value left in the rest of the car. Maybe a good way to get a cheap car, if there's a little luck involved!

You might get lucky sometimes. I've been the own who's written off a lot of those cars. It's still a big expensive job, the head being at the machinist's is about $400 by itself, then all the R&R at a decent shop is another $600-$1000. So yeah, depends on the car's value.

Originally Posted by maxhifi

I guess it's becoming less relevant, with the industry moving away from timing belts. The main problem is how darn annoying front wheel drive cars are to work on.. I had the timing belt off in my RWD pickup in a few hours.

Oh yes... much less relevant. Now more cars are using timing chains... riding on plastic guides that become brittle in the heat and oil of an engine by 100k miles and break and destroy the valves just like a broken timing belt. I've already dealt with several of those. In general, they're much more labor intensive. You're honestly better off with a rubber belt. You'll have to do the maintenance either way, and a belt is typically easier. I suppose the one advantage a chain design has is the absence of camshaft oil seals.

On occasion I've been able to do a chain job preventatively. It's hard to catch though, because it's not as easy as just peeking behind a plastic cover to look at the condition of a belt. :/ It's also not a 'recommended' maintenance, nor is it something the ordinary motorist (or indeed, mechanic) would even consider to be a maintenance item.

[mr_rye89]

Originally Posted by MadMan

Oh yes... much less relevant. Now more cars are using timing chains... riding on plastic guides that become brittle in the heat and oil of an engine by 100k miles and break and destroy the valves just like a broken timing belt. I've already dealt with several of those. In general, they're much more labor intensive. You're honestly better off with a rubber belt. You'll have to do the maintenance either way, and a belt is typically easier. I suppose the one advantage a chain design has is the absence of camshaft oil seals.

On occasion I've been able to do a chain job preventatively. It's hard to catch though, because it's not as easy as just peeking behind a plastic cover to look at the condition of a belt. :/ It's also not a 'recommended' maintenance, nor is it something the ordinary motorist (or indeed, mechanic) would even consider to be a maintenance item.

Thats my "case" for timing belts, at least for OHC applications. as for front wheel drive, that's why I'm in a Miata right now. the timing belt shouldn't be too hard on that one, it was replaced at 80k, and isn't due until 160K.......unless the water pump craps out.

[MadMan]

Originally Posted by mr_rye89

the timing belt shouldn't be too hard on that one, it was replaced at 80k, and isn't due until 160K.......unless the water pump craps out.

Oh it shouldn't be too bad. But I would do it at 140k or earlier. In fact, most manufacturers recommend a shorter interval after the first belt. It's typical for it to say at 120k then every 60k afterwards, for example.

[maxhifi]

Originally Posted by mr_rye89

Thats my "case" for timing belts, at least for OHC applications. as for front wheel drive, that's why I'm in a Miata right now. the timing belt shouldn't be too hard on that one, it was replaced at 80k, and isn't due until 160K.......unless the water pump craps out.

The Miata is a non-interferance engine, so if the belt does break, it won't be a total disaster.

[maxhifi]

Originally Posted by MadMan

You might get lucky sometimes. I've been the own who's written off a lot of those cars. It's still a big expensive job, the head being at the machinist's is about $400 by itself, then all the R&R at a decent shop is another $600-$1000. So yeah, depends on the car's value.

Oh yes... much less relevant. Now more cars are using timing chains... riding on plastic guides that become brittle in the heat and oil of an engine by 100k miles and break and destroy the valves just like a broken timing belt. I've already dealt with several of those. In general, they're much more labor intensive. You're honestly better off with a rubber belt. You'll have to do the maintenance either way, and a belt is typically easier. I suppose the one advantage a chain design has is the absence of camshaft oil seals.

On occasion I've been able to do a chain job preventatively. It's hard to catch though, because it's not as easy as just peeking behind a plastic cover to look at the condition of a belt. :/ It's also not a 'recommended' maintenance, nor is it something the ordinary motorist (or indeed, mechanic) would even consider to be a maintenance item.

Any brands/engines specifically prone to failure? I've seen plenty last a lot longer than 100k, miles, but if that failure prone it sounds like gambling.

Sounds like a reasonable case for pushrods, that style of engine lasted great, no fancy cam drive system..

[DavGoodlin]

Originally Posted by maxhifi

Any brands/engines specifically prone to failure? I've seen plenty last a lot longer than 100k, miles, but if that failure prone it sounds like gambling.

Sounds like a reasonable case for pushrods, that style of engine lasted great, no fancy cam drive system..

St

Has anyone mentioned the original timing chain fail when General Motors used nylon timing gears on their very-interfering small-block V8. Not to be outdone, they used the softened camshafts later in the 70's that rounded lobes by 60K miles.

[MadMan]

Originally Posted by maxhifi

Any brands/engines specifically prone to failure? I've seen plenty last a lot longer than 100k, miles, but if that failure prone it sounds like gambling.

Most are still a bit new for me to start pointing fingers. Of some of the older ones that I've personally seen... VW's 2.8 VR6 (doing one atm), Ford's 4.0 v6 (Explorers, mostly the older ones [enormous pain in the ass to do]), MINI's 1.8(?) (was able to catch that one early), GM's Ecotec 4 banger (saw one go at 60k, another at 100k [strangely I've only seen it in 2010+, design change, maybe?])... and that's all that's coming to mind atm.

Originally Posted by DavGoodlin

Has anyone mentioned the original timing chain fail when General Motors used nylon timing gears on their very-interfering small-block V8. Not to be outdone, they used the softened camshafts later in the 70's that rounded lobes by 60K miles.

NICE!