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  #16  
Old 10-09-2017, 08:30 AM
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They wouldn't be the first studios to hate the chosen broadcast format and transcode the studio's chosen format to it....Here in the states when CBS's field sequential system lost the format war officially (writing was on the wall long before), CBS took their existing field sequential broadcast studio ran it through a transcoder, and were the first post NTSC approval station broadcasting NTSC!...They continued with that kludge for years until the field sequential gear broke or they had got over their loss enough to stomach buying proper NTSC color cameras.
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2017, 09:39 AM
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Heard that the advantage of SECAM was that the viewer couldn't mess it up - on NTSC they could get the hue & saturation wrong, on PAL in the UK the saturation was often to high, but on SECAM the broadcaster was in charge & the viewer got what they got & that was that. That's on TV's without a colour/saturation control that IIRC original SECAM sets didn't have, the later PAL/SECAM sets did have a colour/saturation control so the viewer could mess it up. I had a PAL/SECAM/NTSC TV & that had a hue & saturation control...
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  #18  
Old 10-15-2017, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
CBS's field sequential system lost the format war...CBS took their existing field sequential broadcast studio ran it through a transcoder, and were the first post NTSC approval station broadcasting NTSC!...They continued with that kludge for years until the field sequential gear broke or they had got over their loss enough to stomach buying proper NTSC color cameras.
You're thinking of the Chromacoder, a Rube Goldberg use of sequential color field cameras to broadcast NTSC. I am quite sure network use of the Chromacorder didn't last much beyond 1954. In fact, CBS in Hollywood was equipped with TK-41s by the fall of that year. I'm not sure if any definitive evidence exists as to exactly how long that technique was used, but probably not outside the very early, still experimental period following the approval of NTSC color. It required a ton more light and (surprise, surprise), gave an inferior result compared to an all-electronic color camera.
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  #19  
Old 10-15-2017, 01:18 PM
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BBC1 on low band reached over 99% of the UK population by the 60's, it also reached large parts of the Irish Republic, Northern France, Western Belgium & Western Netherlands. They made TV's that'd work on 405, 625 & 819 lines for use in Northern France & Belgium, they must have been very expensive...
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  #20  
Old 10-15-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
They wouldn't be the first studios to hate the chosen broadcast format and transcode the studio's chosen format to it....Here in the states when CBS's field sequential system lost the format war officially (writing was on the wall long before), CBS took their existing field sequential broadcast studio ran it through a transcoder, and were the first post NTSC approval station broadcasting NTSC!...They continued with that kludge for years until the field sequential gear broke or they had got over their loss enough to stomach buying proper NTSC color cameras.
The Chromacoder cameras used the field sequential method, but that was about it. Chromacoder =/= CBS field sequential. They scanned 525 lines at 180 fields per second, 60 of them red, 60 of them blue, 60 of them green. The raster was rotated 90 degrees so the scan lines would run vertically so as to reduce the moire patters when converting the result to NTSC. The output from the camera was then fed in a round robin fashion to one of three special CRTs operating at 27ish kV with a specially formulated P1 phosphor, one tube for red, one for green, and one for blue. Each CRT had a camera tube aimed at it, and the output of the three camera tubes was used, along with a storage tube, to develop an NTSC signal.
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  #21  
Old 10-31-2017, 07:04 AM
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Britain had no plans to broadcast any VHF TV after the 405 lines VHF system closed down. Most British 625 lines TV's didn't have a VHF tuner, although a few did as they were meant for the Irish market where they used VHF & UHF for 625 until around 2012 AFAIK. Later on from the late 90's there were multi standard sets that'd work on all 625 systems in PAL & SECAM, VHF/UHF, I had one of these but it only ever worked on PAL I system at UHF. High band is now used to broadcast digital radio, don't think low band is used for anything anymore..
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  #22  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:37 AM
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There where dual 405-625 line sets too. Includig color ones!
But when in the U.K. color tvs becamed cheaper? (let's say 4.000-6.000 British Pounds in today's money).
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  #23  
Old 01-16-2018, 11:59 AM
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1960's British colour TV's had to be dual standard 405/625 sets if you wanted to receive BBC1 & ITV as they only transmitted on 405 VHF till November 1969 when they fired up on 625 UHF as well. Both colour & black/white dual standard TV's were clunking great monsters. My parents rented a dual standard TV till 71/72 when they bought a Sony colour set & a free Elizabethan T12 B/W portable TV that I still have, so we became a 625 only family overnight. BTW you could tell who had a 625 lines TV by the UHF TV antenna on the the roof, most folks had an H or X shaped antenna for VHF TV reception. Most of the H & X shaped antenna's have corroded away or fell down by now...
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2018, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telecolor 3007 View Post
There where dual 405-625 line sets too. Includig color ones!
But when in the U.K. color tvs becamed cheaper? (let's say 4.000-6.000 British Pounds in today's money).
For many years, many Britons also hired (rented) their TV sets and even some of their appliances. From companies like Thorn, Rediffusion, and others.
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2018, 11:09 PM
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The BBC did try color on 405 but mostly experimental. Sets were produced for demonstration but not sold to the public.

A great collector, David Boynes in England, restored what I think from the notes is a Pye 405 color set (mostly RCA tube imports and Pye designs from there) and from that modified a B&K generator to produce 405 color. I can only find his notes on the ETF site and they mostly document the B&K mods...not the set.

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pye_c...storation.html

More from David (FERNSEH)

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...t=68780&page=2

And a BBC doc that shows color at the very end. Not a kine but a film shot on set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K37...ature=youtu.be

The notes have an interesting entry of finding a Mullard (Holland) version of the 21CYP22. Perhaps there were other 21's made under license by Mullard or others and can be searched in Europe. Jerome H...any help on this thought?

Mods...if this is drifting too far afield please restart as you wish with a new topic.
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  #26  
Old 06-04-2018, 01:25 AM
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In the 1950s the BBC produced experimental colour transmissions on both 405 and 625 lines. All using NTSC adapted to suit the different systems. Several manufacturers made experimental colour sets using American CRTs and largely American technology. Marconi built cameras, nicknamed coffin cameras on account of their size and shape, using 3x image orthicon tubes.

Apparently it all worked pretty well and a lot of experience was gained. I think the decision not to start a colour service was largely financial and political rather than technical.

By 1967 when the UK colour service started there were plumbicon cameras and a well developed set of European valves and components, largely due to work by Philips.

Early sets were expensive, several thousand pounds in todays values. Roughly equivalent to the cost of 42" plasma flat screens when they first were sold.
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  #27  
Old 06-04-2018, 09:26 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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Originally Posted by KentTeffeteller View Post
For many years, many Britons also hired (rented) their TV sets and even some of their appliances. From companies like Thorn, Rediffusion, and others.
Many who rented had a coin meter on the back of the TV, you'd put 10 or 50 pence coins in it, think you got 2 hours for 10 pence & 10 hours 50 pence. (or something like that)Iif there was more money in the meter than the rental cost they got the surplus back as a rebate. When I went to Canary Islands 11 years ago you had to put a 1 euro coin in a meter for 1 hour of TV, when I went last month it was free...

Yes a lot of people used to rent washing machines, fridges, stoves etc & often paid via the TV coin meter. Heard of washing machines with slot meters but never actually seen one so not sure if true or I was being had...
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  #28  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:06 AM
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..Channel 4 from Meldrum for North east Scotland ...
As long as you didn't have to watch Molly Meldrum on station at Meldrum
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  #29  
Old 06-14-2018, 09:03 AM
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Heard an urban legend that said that the BBC had to continue broadcasting 405 lines because there was a grandmother that still had a working 405 line set and no 625 line set. I would have thought that the BBC would give her a 625 line set so that they could shut down the 405 line transmitter...
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  #30  
Old 06-15-2018, 08:51 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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When France shut their 441 lines system down anyone who had a 441 lines only TV were given an 819 lines TV as it was cheaper than keeping the 441 system running. Why the BBC & ITV didn't do this I don't know... There were very few people using 405 lines only TV's when it was shut down completely in Jan 1985, vast majority of folks had gone over to 625 lines colour by then. Someone gave me a 405 only TV in 1981, it worked for a bit then started smoking so turned off quick, took it outside & plugged it into an extension lead, it then smoked a lot & went "PHUT" & it died & that was that. Never saw another 405 lines picture again..
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