DTV on standard NTSC TVs

[Ed in Tx]

Originally Posted by colorfixer

Those who run the big 3 networks in Seattle made getting locals on satellite so difficult that when Directv first offered them, we had to file waivers to each affiliate to get ABC, CBS, and NBC..

Now local channels are mandatory on Dish and DirecTV. I had to battle Dish go take the local channels OFF of my service as I receive over 70 OTA channels which Dish certainly can't duplicate, and they are not effected by rain outages. Dish made Locals mandatory shortly after I signed up for their service, and the first change I made to the service updated my account to include locals and added the fee to my bill. I argued with them and won, saving me a whopping $5 a mo off my Dish bill. Hey why pay for it if you already have better.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by Ed in Tx

Now local channels are mandatory on Dish and DirecTV. I had to battle Dish go take the local channels OFF of my service as I receive over 70 OTA channels which Dish certainly can't duplicate, and they are not effected by rain outages.

Seventy over the air channels? Wow! You must be at a very high point in your area, or else you have a 225-mile deep-fringe antenna with a preamp, rotor, the works. I've never known or even heard of anyone (until now) who can get seventy channels of TV without cable. You must be getting stations from everywhere in the Southwest US, and then some.

[Ed in Tx]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

Seventy over the air channels? Wow! You must be at a very high point in your area, or else you have a 225-mile deep-fringe antenna with a preamp, rotor, the works. I've never known or even heard of anyone (until now) who can get seventy channels of TV without cable. You must be getting stations from everywhere in the Southwest US, and then some.

Nope just from Cedar Hill TX about 30 miles south of me. That includes all the digital multi channels. Some have up to 5 standard def channels.


My not so deep fringe antenna, in the attic of the garage, an old Antennacraft-made sold at RadioShack back in the '80s-90s.



A neighbor was throwing it away so I salvaged it, cut the back end off about a foot with the longest elements (damaged) no longer needed since there's nothing on the old channels 2 through 6 low VHF.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by Ed in Tx

Nope just from Cedar Hill TX about 30 miles south of me. That includes all the digital multi channels. Some have up to 5 standard def channels.


My not so deep fringe antenna, in the attic of the garage, an old AntennaCraft brand.



A neighbor was throwing it away so I salvaged it, cut the back end off about a foot with the longest elements (damaged) no longer needed since there's nothing on the old channels 2 through 6 low VHF.

Your antenna looks almost exactly like one on a house I pass on my way to the supermarket here every week or so. That antenna also has lost most of its VHF elements, and could be used for DTV in this area if not for the CBS affiliate in Cleveland, WOIO-TV. That station operates on virtual channel 19 (the station number shown on digital TV sets and converter boxes) but its DTV signal is on channel 10, the only VHF DTV station I am aware of in this area (the rest of the DTV stations in Cleveland are on UHF channels). I suppose if all the damaged VHF elements were taken off that antenna, leaving only the five or so undamaged ones, it could be used as a dedicated channel 10 antenna, with the UHF section (which is undamaged) being used to receive the other Cleveland DTVs. However, since there is a potential interference problem between DTV 10 in this area and a Canadian station (CFPL-TV in London, Ontario) on the same channel, there is a chance that one or the other may be forced, eventually, to move to a UHF channel. However, because of the higher frequencies, lower power and therefore limited range of digital television signals transmitted over UHF channels, there may not be that much of an issue as far as interference is concerned; only time will tell what may or may not shake out in that situation.

You said that many of the stations you can receive have as many as five (!) digital HD and/or SD subchannels; that's amazing. How many standard TV stations did you receive in your area before DTV? The PBS station in Cleveland has three subchannels (PBS World, PBS Ohio, and PBS Create);the NBC station has one (weather radar), the ABC station has one (the LiveWell Network), the CBS station has one (MeTV), the Fox station has one (Antenna TV) and the CW Network affiliate has an HD subchannel, but no other alternate programming. There is a PBS station about sixty miles southwest of here that has three DTV subchannels as well. All told, on the cable system here I can get twelve channels, counting the broadcast channels' DTV subchannels, in addition to the standard "must carry" cable channels; the complete total number of channels I can get on Time Warner Cable -- broadcast, DTV subchannels, and must-carry channels -- comes close to the number of OTA stations you are receiving with your converted antenna.

You are also saving a bundle by receiving your TV over the air, as cable systems raise their already high rates every year. I'd like to put up an OTA antenna here, but there are at least two problems: one, I live in an apartment building, so cannot erect an outside TV antenna, and two, I am in a semi-fringe area for Cleveland television, the transmitters being located just under 40 miles southwest of here. One VHF network station did not reach here in analog, and the others, except for channel 19, were fair to poor, using rabbit ears. I doubt I'd have much better luck with DTV -- in fact, I think my reception of all Cleveland stations would be the same or perhaps worse than it was in NTSC analog.

[Ed in Tx]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

You said that many of the stations you can receive have as many as five (!) digital HD and/or SD subchannels; that's amazing. How many standard TV stations did you receive in your area before DTV?

About 15-20 including the low power stations. Since the DTV transition several more low power stations have come on the air. Most don't interest me. But there are a few good ones like RTV, Antenna TV, ThisTV, AccuWeather, PBS World. Was just looking at the TV Guide info, one channel KWDA-LP has 9 sub-channels listed!

I have tried a couple of other antennas including a new Winegard thinking the old one wasn't doing as well as it could and maybe I could improve reception of LP stations. However, nothing performed as well as this old RS-Antennacraft antenna on UHF! I think it has to do with the folded or loop dipole UHF driven element used. That's the main visible difference between this and a similar sized Winegard that simply didn't have the signal strength. Antennacraft still sells antennas. Saw one at a Home Depot a year or so ago by the "GE" name, GE TV24767 was the number. I recall someone who went looking for one found out Home Depot discontinued it.

As I found it, before my modification...



Antenna as advertised by RS in 1995

[DavGoodlin]

Originally Posted by Ed in Tx

...However, nothing performed as well as this old RS-Antennacraft antenna on UHF! I think it has to do with the folded or loop dipole UHF driven element used. That's the main visible difference between this and a similar sized Winegard that simply didn't have the signal strength. Antennacraft still sells antennas.

Ed, you're correct about that folded dipole. the single driven UHF element with the director array in front seems to work best for me too. The bowtie shape enhances its function.
I have a vintage Channel Master yagi (4257) that uses the same element.
House array 2009.jpg
This gets us 45 DT channels without moving the rotor. 30 from Philadelphia, which the antenna is aimed at. 15 more locals come in due to high signal strength. The amplifiers are located in the attic - in case they crap out in bad weather. needless to say I have no use for cable.

RS used to have a simple dipole for UHF on all its antennas, and it barely worked, all that changed when RS offered the folded dipole. Maybe CM's 1977 patent expired and Antennacraft started using it. BTW Antennacraft is made by Winegard.