Very early CTV?

[Combwork]

First I must apologise for the lack of photos but since I saw it the set has been sold. It was a large consul cabinet with an opaque screen. Inside there was a disc with a series of Red, Blue and Green segments. Underneath was a small light bulb and above was what looked like a focusing mechanism. I'm guessing that what I was looking at was a very early electro-mechanical colour television.

It literally looked new; the story I got was that it was originally on show in the CBS managers office. What are the odds of a thing like this turning up in a stone built fortified house on the edge of Glasgow?

At the time it was owned by an unreliable carictor who liked to have work done for free. We fell out over an unpaid bill, since when I've avoided him like the plague. I can't help wondering why those people who can afford the most are the ones most likely to avoid paying for work.

No matter, the last I heard of the set was that it had been sold for an undisclosed sum. I sometimes wonder just what it was that I saw and where it is now.

[kx250rider]

Sounds like a CBS-system type color wheel set. I don't know what system it may have been specifically in Scotland, but likely the technology was similar to the CBS system in the USA; configured for the appropriate scan rate and color subcarrier.

Charles

[Aussie Bloke]

I've lately been researching the art of early mechanical television and from what you described makes me wonder if it could be John Logie Baird's early experimental mechanical colour TV set from 1928? Question, was the red, green and blue segments on the disc a series of red, green and blue holes like in this picture http://www.earlytelevision.org/image..._colortv_1.jpg or was it like this colour wheel http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/...946/colors.jpg ? And I read that Baird's colour mechanical set used at least two lights, a white lamp for the greens and blues and a neon orange lamp for the reds, did this set have two or more lights?

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by Aussie Bloke

I've lately been researching the art of early mechanical television and from what you described makes me wonder if it could be John Logie Baird's early experimental mechanical colour TV set from 1928? Question, was the red, green and blue segments on the disc a series of red, green and blue holes like in this picture http://www.earlytelevision.org/image..._colortv_1.jpg or was it like this colour wheel http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/...946/colors.jpg ? And I read that Baird's colour mechanical set used at least two lights, a white lamp for the greens and blues and a neon orange lamp for the reds, did this set have two or more lights?

I don't think it was an experimental set; too well finished. I don't remember it having a makers name either. Thinking back (it was over ten years ago that I saw it) it may have been built by RCA. I was told that it was from the directors office and assumed (wrongly?) that it was brought over from the 'States. I can't remember the shape of the inserts in the colour wheel, but I think it only had one light under it.

Baird built and publicly demonstrated a freestanding unit that was able to receive BBC 405 line black and white broadcasts as well as his own 600 line colour broadcasts. It had a record player and radio built in.

After WW2 the Pilkington Committee was set up. They recommended to the UK government that as it was compatible with BBC b & w broadcasts, his system should be given the go-ahead. The problem was that he was a difficult person to work with. The director-general of the BBC loathed him with a passion and told the committee that they would not co-operate with him, so he didn't get the required license to make public colour TV broadcasts.

At a radio show just after WW2 various Baird b & w sets were on display, all priced at around £100, but there was one set in his catalogue (but not on display) priced at £1500. At this time he was still hoping that his colour system would be given the go-ahead; maybe this was a tentative price for one of his colour receivers, test marketed to see if anyone would be willing to pay that sort of money.

There's a persistent story that after his death, RCA got their hands on some of his equipment.

[mr_fixer]

Well, with you being in Scotland I'm thinking it might been made by/for Mr. John Logie Baird.
I think he experimented with color for a while

http://www.bairdtelevision.com/

[Sandy G]

Seems like I've heard before that Baird was sorta, uhh, "Difficult", to say the least. "One fry short of a Happy Meal", as we might say here in the States. Seems like that was alluded to in Tim Hunkin's "Secret Life of Machines" segment on "Tellies"...And I've seen a pic of him that makes him look a bit "Disturbed". But don't be insulted, my British colleagues-Edison was kinda "Teched", too.. Sarnoff was a meglomaniac who drove Armstrong to suicide-and Armstrong was reportedly pretty bombastic in his own right. Commander Eugene F. McDonald, the ramrod behind Zenith, was a sorta imperious guy, too, who DESPISED Sarnoff. Seems like a LOT of these guys who developed "Electronics" were pretty much a half-bubble or so off plumb in one respect or another.

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by Sandy G

Seems like I've heard before that Baird was sorta, uhh, "Difficult", to say the least. "One fry short of a Happy Meal", as we might say here in the States. Seems like that was alluded to in Tim Hunkin's "Secret Life of Machines" segment on "Tellies"...And I've seen a pic of him that makes him look a bit "Disturbed". But don't be insulted, my British colleagues-Edison was kinda "Teched", too.. Sarnoff was a meglomaniac who drove Armstrong to suicide-and Armstrong was reportedly pretty bombastic in his own right. Commander Eugene F. McDonald, the ramrod behind Zenith, was a sorta imperious guy, too, who DESPISED Sarnoff. Seems like a LOT of these guys who developed "Electronics" were pretty much a half-bubble or so off plumb in one respect or another.

I wonder if so much close exposure to high voltage wiring affected them? It's not a totally crazy idea; some people claim that constant exposure to electric pylons can cause depression, mood swings etc.

[Sandy G]

Originally Posted by Combwork

I wonder if so much close exposure to high voltage wiring affected them? It's not a totally crazy idea; some people claim that constant exposure to electric pylons can cause depression, mood swings etc.

Could be. But those guys had to be "Pretty Far Gone" to have come up w/some of this stuff in the 1st place..Howard Armstrong's "Thing" was climbing Poles of any/allsorts...The taller & more dangerous, the better...About the only one of the early pioneers that apparently had NO eccentricities was Philo T. Farnsworth..at least none that ever got reported. He was just a simple farmboy, somewhat shy.

[Steve D.]

Being seen in Scotland it is very plausible that it was an early Baird field sequential color set. The British electronics co. Pye used a field sequential system to telecast an experimental color broadcast of the coronation of Queen Elizabeth in 1953. Doubt the set seen in Scotland was one of the two 1953 color sets which used a crt to display the field sequential image. But who knows? Here is a link to more info on this system: http://www.earlytelevision.org/briti...erimental.html

-Steve D.

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by Steve D.

Being seen in Scotland it is very plausible that it was an early Baird field sequential color set. The British electronics co. Pye used a field sequential system to telecast an experimental color broadcast of the coronation of Queen Elizabeth in 1953. Doubt the set seen in Scotland was one of the two 1953 color sets which used a crt to display the field sequential image. But who knows? Here is a link to more info on this system: http://www.earlytelevision.org/briti...erimental.html

-Steve D.

I don't see how it could have been a crt set; it definitely had a 3 coloured segmented wheel set above a light bulb, probably very high brigtness as it was designed to project an image onto the inside of an opaque screen on the front of the set.

Although it looked brand new, negligible dust inside, and beautiful cabinet the owner had never switched it on and had no intention of ever doing so.

He was obsessed with early TV's and wrote a couple of books about them, but I think he got this set after his last book was published.

[Steve McVoy]

Combwork, could the set you saw have been outside Edinburgh rather than Glasgow? Michael Bennett-Levy owned this one:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/ge_1946_prototype.html

which he later donated to the National Museum of Scotland, I think.

This set uses a small CRT which projects an image through the color wheel and a lens and mirror to the screen.

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by Steve McVoy

Combwork, could the set you saw have been outside Edinburgh rather than Glasgow? Michael Bennett-Levy owned this one:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/ge_1946_prototype.html

which he later donated to the National Museum of Scotland, I think.

This set uses a small CRT which projects an image through the color wheel and a lens and mirror to the screen.

Thank you Steve, you're spot on. "Donated" is maybe questionable but although things went wrong between us over a trivial matter, by and large he was OK and had an unerring knack of digging out obscure information. I had no idea the set could have been that old but it still leaves the question. Was it brought in from the 'States (possibly by a third party) or was it one of John Logie Baird's prototypes? The well finished cabinet indicates that it was a presentation piece that given the backing of the Pilkington Committee, could have gone into production.

Oh Well. Chances are we'll never know...............

I've just checked. It looks like you're right again http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/...museum-gallery WTF? How terribly British to co-invent something then ignore it.

[Steve McVoy]

The set was discovered by a U.S. dealer (Harry Poster) in New York, then purchased by Michael Bennett-Levy and shipped to Scotland.

[Combwork]

Originally Posted by Steve McVoy

[COLOR="black"]The set was discovered by a U.S. dealer (Harry Poster) in New York, then purchased by Michael Bennett-Levy and shipped to Scotland[/COLOR].

I've read that fast moving objects gave field sequential colour tv sets problems with colour resolution, but can't help wondering what the picture was like with slow moving objects. 500+ lines is considerably more than the 405 line VHF UK black & white standard used until the early 1970's. BBC test colour transmissions were broadcast on 405 lines, usually late at night.

In theory although the test broadcasts were not aimed at the public, they could buy a colour receiver but two things were against it.

1). They had to know the sets were available. Because test transmissions were not made for public reception, I don't think these sets were advertised.
2). They had to be able to afford to buy one.

In a Sci-Fi film made in 1963 called "Children of the damned", there's a passing reference to one of the characters having problems with the red gun on his colour TV. This was 3 years before the BBC opened their 625 line UHF colour television service.

[Steve McVoy]

The CBS system in 1946 used 525 lines, 24 fps. There was a problem with flicker with moving objects, causing color fringing. In 1950 CBS changed to 405 lines, 24 fps in order to fit into a VHF 6 mHz channel.

We have working 405 line CBS field sequential receivers at the museum, and they produce wonderful color with slow moving images.

CBS did broadcast to the public in 1951 for a few months. Here is the story:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/cbs_color_system.html