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  #46  
Old 12-16-2017, 10:29 AM
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Sorry, but you are still not answering my question. When ATSC 3.0 is enacted, will it affect streaming video services such as Roku, which is already a "converter box" and gets TV programming over the Internet?
The ATSC 3.0 standard only changes the way TV is broadcast over the air. On-line streaming is and has always been an entirely separate technology. NO change to the OTA standard will directly affect streaming. It's entirely separate technology.

However, there are peripheral effects. ATSC 3.0 includes features for auxiliary streams, for example. This could be data to make clickable icons as part of the program, or provide multiple selectable camera angles in sports. The question then becomes if the streaming services will carry any of the ancillary data, not if they will carry the main program or not, which will still be determined by economic/profit considerations, just as today a cable system may carry only a station's main program and not its subchannels. ATSC 3.0 also has very flexible trade-offs of data rate vs. signal robustness in the broadcast signal, so a single transmitter can emit multiple programs (like ATSC 1.0 does) except that the video resolution and signal robustness may be very different for a stream intended for mobile reception vs. an ultra high definition stream intended for use only with a good antenna. Again, when stations are broadcasting multiple streams, a streaming service may carry only certain ones, and might, for example, down-res ultra HD to regular HD.

Since the interface from the streaming service to your streaming box is QAM, carrying internet protocol data, and the interface from the box to your TV is a HDMI cable, neither of these is affected at all by the signal format that is broadcast through the air.

What gets transferred from over-the-air stations to streaming services will continue to be determined by business considerations, not technical ones.
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  #47  
Old 12-16-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_tv_nut View Post
The ATSC 3.0 standard only changes the way TV is broadcast over the air. On-line streaming is and has always been an entirely separate technology. NO change to the OTA standard will directly affect streaming. It's entirely separate technology.

However, there are peripheral effects. ATSC 3.0 includes features for auxiliary streams, for example. This could be data to make clickable icons as part of the program, or provide multiple selectable camera angles in sports. The question then becomes if the streaming services will carry any of the ancillary data, not if they will carry the main program or not, which will still be determined by economic/profit considerations, just as today a cable system may carry only a station's main program and not its subchannels. ATSC 3.0 also has very flexible trade-offs of data rate vs. signal robustness in the broadcast signal, so a single transmitter can emit multiple programs (like ATSC 1.0 does) except that the video resolution and signal robustness may be very different for a stream intended for mobile reception vs. an ultra high definition stream intended for use only with a good antenna. Again, when stations are broadcasting multiple streams, a streaming service may carry only certain ones, and might, for example, down-res ultra HD to regular HD.

Since the interface from the streaming service to your streaming box is QAM, carrying internet protocol data, and the interface from the box to your TV is a HDMI cable, neither of these is affected at all by the signal format that is broadcast through the air.

What gets transferred from over-the-air stations to streaming services will continue to be determined by business considerations, not technical ones.
Thank you for your explanation of ATSC 3.0. I realize the standard will not take effect until at least five years from now, but I was simply concerned, much more than I should have been, that I might have to get a new TV when the standard does take over from the current one (ATSC 1.0). My present 19-inch flat screen is almost seven years old and is used daily; it has given me such excellent service (no repairs of any kind required in all that time, and it still gives me an excellent picture using my Roku player, LG DVD player and Panasonic VCR, to say nothing of standard HD TV broadcasts) that I am not even thinking of replacing it at this point in time. My flat screen TV is an Insignia, the house brand of Best Buy. These TVs are by no means top of the line in flat screens, but they are, IMO, very good sets, and I would not hesitate to buy another if I should need to replace mine or just want a larger screen down the road.
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 12-16-2017 at 02:03 PM.
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  #48  
Old 12-16-2017, 06:31 PM
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Jeffhs,

https://www.techhive.com/article/323...nix-first.html

http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/00...atsc-30/282269

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/h....0-test-market

ATSC 3.0 is in effect now, not 5 years from now. Did you read my above post? I tried to clarify for you, evidently I was not successful. (Beta testing is underway, we are applying to be a beta tester.)
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Last edited by etype2; 12-16-2017 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Add info
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  #49  
Old 12-16-2017, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Titan1a View Post
AM is the "last resort" should all other broadcast communication fail. There are hundreds of millions of operable receivers. Change that and I'll pull the plug on all domestic broadcast wireless listening.
No kidding. Remember AM radio dials with CONELRAD markings? Anyone who has watched Christine has seen them. I rest my case.
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  #50  
Old 12-16-2017, 08:22 PM
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No kidding. Remember AM radio dials with CONELRAD markings? Anyone who has watched Christine has seen them. I rest my case.
I grew up in the Cold War era and remember very well the Conelrad icons on AM radio dials at 640 and 1240, also the Conelrad tests on radio and TV. One of my best (!) memories of the Cold War era (I'll never forget it!) is seeing a Conelrad test on TV in 1963. I was seven years old and just about jumped out of my skin the first time I saw the Conelrad symbol on our 21" Crosley TV. I did not realize this was only a Conelrad test, not "the real deal", and I ran through the living room down the long hall between there and the back of the house, scared out of my wits that the Russians were going to drop a huge bomb on our area of northeast Ohio and blow us all to kingdom come.

BTW, yes, I have seen the movie "Christine", and the tuning scale on the car's radio did in fact have the CD symbols at 640 and 1240, as did all car and home radios made between 1953 and 1963. I have a Zenith C-845 AM-FM table radio, made in 1960, that has these symbols (actually the letters "CD", not the icons themselves) at 640 and 1240 as well. These markings were placed by law on all AM radio dials so that people would not waste valuable time looking for the local Conelrad alert station when local stations went off the air per FCC regulations in effect at the time.

Another reminder of the Cold War era was a YouTube video of a Conelrad radio test gone awry, in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The station was WOWO-1190 and the DJ had just put on a record; suddenly, the sound faded to nothing and a station announcer was heard issuing a Conelrad alert. The alert turned out to have been erroneously broadcast over stations in the Fort Wayne area due to an unfortunate mixup. Do a Google search to see the entire story of this incident, which I am sure anyone who was living in the area at the time will never forget. I live 30 miles outside Cleveland, and grew up in a suburb 15 miles east of the city; however, I don't recall ever hearing any botched Conelrad alerts on local radio stations.

However, in the '70s, someone with a warped sense of humor came up with a musical version of the Conelrad (by then EBS, for Emergency Broadcast System) test, which was later banned and in fact was declared illegal. That the test was sung instead of being read from a script by an announcer was bad enough, but the worst part of that illegal Conelrad test was how it ended: "This concludes this test-----of the Emergency Broadcast System! Did you pass?" I believe that ending, and that the test was made into a singing jingle, was what finally got the jingle banned from American radio, and I don't blame the FCC for doing that, if in fact they did; after all, this was meant to be an emergency alert, meant to be read, not sung, by an announcer. IMO, whomever came up with the idea for this should have been arrested and jailed for attempting to make a mockery of the former Emergency Broadcast System. I'm sure if anyone ever tried to do this with today's Emergency Alert System (EAS), the person would in fact be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 12-16-2017 at 08:33 PM.
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  #51  
Old 12-16-2017, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etype2 View Post
Jeffhs,

https://www.techhive.com/article/323...nix-first.html

http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/00...atsc-30/282269

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/h....0-test-market

ATSC 3.0 is in effect now, not 5 years from now. Did you read my above post? I tried to clarify for you, evidently I was not successful. (Beta testing is underway, we are applying to be a beta tester.)

UntiI I read your post, I didn't know that ATSC 3.0 has already been enacted and is now in use, superseding its predecessor, ATSC 1.0. I read the articles your post links to, and that just reinforces what you said: that ATSC 3.0 is being tested in the Phoenix, Arizona market on that area's television stations. If the Phoenix tests go well, other areas' TV stations may adopt the new standard, although such will be entirely voluntary, not necessarily required by law.
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  #52  
Old 12-16-2017, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffhs View Post
I grew up in the Cold War era and remember very well the Conelrad icons on AM radio dials at 640 and 1240, also the Conelrad tests on radio and TV. One of my best (!) memories of the Cold War era (I'll never forget it!) is seeing a Conelrad test on TV in 1963. I was seven years old and just about jumped out of my skin the first time I saw the Conelrad symbol on our 21" Crosley TV. I did not realize this was only a Conelrad test, not "the real deal", and I ran through the living room down the long hall between there and the back of the house, scared out of my wits that the Russians were going to drop a huge bomb on our area of northeast Ohio and blow us all to kingdom come.
Yeesh, I can certainly see why that would be your clearest Cold War era memory, that would have been like a branding iron to the brain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffhs View Post
BTW, yes, I have seen the movie "Christine", and the tuning scale on the car's radio did in fact have the CD symbols at 640 and 1240, as did all car and home radios made between 1953 and 1963. I have a Zenith C-845 AM-FM table radio, made in 1960, that has these symbols (actually the letters "CD", not the icons themselves) at 640 and 1240 as well. These markings were placed by law on all AM radio dials so that people would not waste valuable time looking for the local Conelrad alert station when local stations went off the air per FCC regulations in effect at the time.
For sure, I'm just saying that Christine is likely to have introduced many people to the CONELRAD symbol, those people just wouldn't have recognized it at first. The symbol made it onto some early 1964 dials as well as deactivation came too late for design changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffhs View Post
Another reminder of the Cold War era was a YouTube video of a Conelrad radio test gone awry, in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The station was WOWO-1190 and the DJ had just put on a record; suddenly, the sound faded to nothing and a station announcer was heard issuing a Conelrad alert. The alert turned out to have been erroneously broadcast over stations in the Fort Wayne area due to an unfortunate mixup. Do a Google search to see the entire story of this incident, which I am sure anyone who was living in the area at the time will never forget.
No kidding, and they would have at least needed a clean pair of shorts.

I don't know if nukes were a threat up here but my 1955 Pye radio scale lacks the CONELRAD symbol. It's a British design but was made at a plant in Ontario so who knows.
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  #53  
Old 12-17-2017, 07:46 AM
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I'm waiting for a day that all the DTV's and digital cable boxes become a brick when a special virus effects and corrupts the bios/flash chips in them and make them renderless and no fix available .That would put the numnuts that came up with the system on the spot. lease we have no issues if analog was still here.
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  #54  
Old 12-17-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeffhs View Post
I grew up in the Cold War era and remember very well the Conelrad icons on AM radio dials at 640 and 1240, also the Conelrad tests on radio and TV. One of my best (!) memories of the Cold War era (I'll never forget it!) is seeing a Conelrad test on TV in 1963. I was seven years old and just about jumped out of my skin the first time I saw the Conelrad symbol on our 21" Crosley TV. I did not realize this was only a Conelrad test, not "the real deal", and I ran through the living room down the long hall between there and the back of the house, scared out of my wits that the Russians were going to drop a huge bomb on our area of northeast Ohio and blow us all to kingdom come.

BTW, yes, I have seen the movie "Christine", and the tuning scale on the car's radio did in fact have the CD symbols at 640 and 1240, as did all car and home radios made between 1953 and 1963. I have a Zenith C-845 AM-FM table radio, made in 1960, that has these symbols (actually the letters "CD", not the icons themselves) at 640 and 1240 as well. These markings were placed by law on all AM radio dials so that people would not waste valuable time looking for the local Conelrad alert station when local stations went off the air per FCC regulations in effect at the time.


.
The worst cold war incident was the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was about 17 at the time and was scared sh#tless. Many people say, "You don't know how close we came to all-out Nuclear war".
Now we have this goof-ball with the lousy haircut to worry about.
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  #55  
Old 12-17-2017, 11:25 AM
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I'm waiting for a day that all the DTV's and digital cable boxes become a brick when a special virus effects and corrupts the bios/flash chips in them and make them renderless and no fix available .That would put the numnuts that came up with the system on the spot. lease we have no issues if analog was still here.
Unlikely to ever happen. Most boxes are Linux based, Linux is hard to write viruses for and the cable companies are a secretive cabal of encryption and proprietary equipment fetishists....A virus would just about have to be an inside job.
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  #56  
Old 12-17-2017, 12:41 PM
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I'm waiting for a day that all the DTV's and digital cable boxes become a brick when a special virus effects and corrupts the bios/flash chips in them and make them renderless and no fix available .That would put the numnuts that came up with the system on the spot. lease we have no issues if analog was still here.
There's a B in numbnuts!
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  #57  
Old 12-17-2017, 12:45 PM
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Unlikely to ever happen. Most boxes are Linux based, Linux is hard to write viruses for and the cable companies are a secretive cabal of encryption and proprietary equipment fetishists....A virus would just about have to be an inside job.
I'm more worried about the OTA set-top boxes and the newer sets that have ATSC capability.
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  #58  
Old 12-17-2017, 03:44 PM
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Now we have this goof-ball with the lousy haircut to worry about.
I doubt you all need to worry much about him. I think a war between the US and North Korea would be something like this:

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  #59  
Old 12-17-2017, 08:34 PM
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The chances of HDTVs, set-top boxes, DTV converter boxes, etc. being irreparably damaged or even destroyed by nuclear events and so on are extremely slim. As was mentioned, most STBs, DTV converters, and even HD televisions themselves are powered by Linux, which, again as mentioned, is all but impervious to viruses. When new software is installed on a Linux-based computer, the system always asks for the user's password before initiating the software download; these systems do not allow anything to be downloaded without a password, so, again, the chances of malicious software (malware) being downloaded to a Linux-based system are slim to nonexsistent. This system was incorporated into Linux for just that reason: to prevent rogue software from being downloaded and installed. A recent episode of the NBC-TV series "Chicago Med", in which the hospital's entire computer system was shut down by a rogue virus, was probably based on just such a worst case scenario, and may well have been where VK member Centralradio got the idea for his comments.
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 12-18-2017 at 09:37 AM. Reason: Revision to text
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  #60  
Old 12-18-2017, 05:37 PM
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Streaming devices like Roku and Apple TV have even shorter lives than broadcast standards. After a few years, they start dropping compatibility with older models. They either don't issue needed software updates, or certain services require more computing power than the older models have.
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