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  #31  
Old 04-03-2009, 08:09 PM
W.B. W.B. is offline
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Originally Posted by John Hafer View Post
Here are some pictures of GE and Harris live and film cameras. Note that the Live cameras went from the PE-250 to the PE-350 and then the Harris PE-450. (Missing in my pictures is the GE-400)

For the film cameras, there was first the GE PE-24, then the PE-240, and then the Harris PE-245. The PE-24 & PE-240 are 4 tube vidicon cameras.

Also note from the 1965 picture, the 3 tube IO GE PE-25 live color camera that was sold against the RCA TK-41.

I have a box of pictures from RCA, Norelco, GE, and Ampex broadcast equipment photos from the 50s' and 60's. These are just a couple of them. Hope these help in this thead discussion.

John
Oh, do they help. I seemed to notice that when the PE-240 and PE-250 came out, it seemed a case of adding "0's" to the end of the numerals, because the predecessor to the PE-250 was the PE-25 3 I/O color camera, and the PE-240's predecessor was, of course, the PE-24.

I read in various places (such as Ed Reitan's early color TV site) that GE had a three-vidicon color film camera prior to the PE-24. Would anyone know what model number this 3-V camera was?
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  #32  
Old 04-16-2009, 11:13 AM
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I'm also curious as to whether one can identify the GE film chain cameras in these pictures, from Dennis Degan, taken in 1978 (the cameras as shown on the right in each one):





All I know is that former CBS technicians who frequent the CBS Retirees website (where these pics are featured) have said the Broadcast Center in New York (where the photos were taken) used "4V" cameras, suggesting they'd possibly be PE-24's. But the top looks a little earlier in make than the model as shown in the 1965 ad.
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  #33  
Old 04-30-2009, 08:47 PM
John Hafer John Hafer is offline
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Maybe this will help: (Click on picture to enlarge)

GE PE-240001.jpg
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  #34  
Old 05-01-2009, 09:44 PM
W.B. W.B. is offline
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Hmmm. Seems like the PE-24/PE-240 had two different top designs, from what it looks like. But thanks in any case. (If CBS acquired them in 1966, then they'd be PE-240; if 1965, then they'd be PE-24.)

B.T.W., the PE-245 film chain camera was first introduced by GE in 1971, in that company's last year of owning their broadcast equipment division. Thus, in 1972, Harris inherited both that and the PE-400 studio camera among those product lines.
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  #35  
Old 05-02-2009, 06:36 PM
John Hafer John Hafer is offline
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Yeah, I agree in that GE must have had two different top designs for their PE-240 color film camera. I have ads for both their 1st. generation (PE-24) and 2nd. generation (PE-240) and both show the same square edged top. Yet my other ad that I attached in my message above shows the rounded top, similiar to the ones show in the CBS image above, so I really don't know.

One thing though, CBS started regular color broadcasting in the fall of 1965 so they must have already had some of their new color film chains in place by then.

I also checked an old TV-GUIDE dated March 1964 and in the issue, there is an article on color television by David Lachenbruch. He writes that, "...it [CBS] is installing $1,500,000 worth of color equipment in its New York production center, now under construction."

Thus, I am assuming that they installed their new color equipment in the spring of 1964, which would place everything a little earlier than 1965 or 1966. And, I am assuming they are talking about color film and tape equipment and not about colorizing their live studios, which I think came later when they purchased their first Norelco PC-60 (or maybe PC-70) cameras that became available in circa 1965.
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  #36  
Old 05-02-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hafer View Post
One thing though, CBS started regular color broadcasting in the fall of 1965 so they must have already had some of their new color film chains in place by then.

I also checked an old TV-GUIDE dated March 1964 and in the issue, there is an article on color television by David Lachenbruch. He writes that, "...it [CBS] is installing $1,500,000 worth of color equipment in its New York production center, now under construction."

Thus, I am assuming that they installed their new color equipment in the spring of 1964, which would place everything a little earlier than 1965 or 1966. And, I am assuming they are talking about color film and tape equipment and not about colorizing their live studios, which I think came later when they purchased their first Norelco PC-60 (or maybe PC-70) cameras that became available in circa 1965.
It's quite possible that some PE-24 class GE film chain cameras had the same round tops as on that PE-240 in the ad you attached, if they started acquiring color equipment in New York in March 1964. (And they'd obviously be referring to the Broadcast Center on 57th Street in that article.) Especially since I've seen references in old Broadcast Engineering issues to PE-24-A's as well as PE-24's. It was also around that time that Ampex first rolled out their high-band VR-2000 quad VTR. And CBS's mentality in terms of buying broadcast equipment, as my understanding, was "anybody but RCA." The PC-60's first came round in 1965, and the PC-70 was introduced in early 1966. So the colorization must've been a long process for CBS.

But also, when initially equipping the Broadcast Center, CBS had transferred RCA TK-26 film chains that had originally been at "Studio 72" on 81st Street and Broadway, to the new studio.
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  #37  
Old 09-05-2014, 03:39 PM
J Ballard J Ballard is offline
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Hi all-

Re: The GE 250 camera was fairly popular, especially in the Midwest U.S. It was a 4 tube design, as was its successors, the PE-350 and PE-400.

The 250 had dichroic optics for color separation, but later, a kit was offered that upgraded the camera to a beam splitter, a big improvement.

The encoder was prone to drifting, that I recall.

Another interesting feature pioneered by GE was "AutoTrast," their term for an auto knee.

ABC had them also in TV-15 in NYC for the "Dick Cavett Show." With an experienced VO and sufficient light, the camera made a fine picture.

For telecine, I don't believe ABC had any GEs, relying on TK-27s, TK-28s, a TK-29 at Prospect, and probably TK-26s in the early days. If anyone has any contray information, I'd be interested, as I worked at ABC.

CBS definitely had GE telecines, although I once saw a TK-28 at Television City.

Regards,

J. Ballard
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  #38  
Old 09-09-2014, 03:33 PM
John Hafer John Hafer is offline
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J Ballard: Actually ABC did use GE Color Film Chains and may have been the first network (or even station) to use them. I attached a picture from April 15,1963 BROADCASTING MAGAZINE showing ABC with the new GE 4-tube color camera. It is my understanding that ABC did have an original RCA TK-26 chain for the Fall of 1962 color startup but by the Fall of 1963 had switched to the new GE cameras. I also have ads from 1965 claiming ABC is using GE color film cameras.

John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1963-04-15 GE-24 at ABC.jpg (135.9 KB, 33 views)
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  #39  
Old 09-10-2014, 10:37 AM
J Ballard J Ballard is offline
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Thanks John.

That was way before my time there and the veterans that I knew never mentioned GE film. Was this in NY or LA, or the O&Os?

I bet that they didn't have many, as there were several TK-27s in NY, and that model was introduced just a couple of years later. Also, the ABC network wasn't flush with cash then. Legend had it that the TV net didn't make money until some of the comedies (Happy Days,etc.) took off. ABC publicly complained that the cost of a vectorscope was excessive!

Frank Marx later went off to run ABTO, the lenticular film company formed by ABC and Todd-AO. Later, Julius Barnathan took over, and finally making money, ABC started spending on equipment for color.

Later on, a Bosch FDL-60 was added to the TK-29 at prospect for network film transfers.

Thanks
JB

Thanks
JB
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  #40  
Old 09-10-2014, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Ballard View Post
...Frank Marx later went off to run ABTO, the lenticular film company formed by ABC and Todd-AO...
What did ABTO do with lenticular film?
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  #41  
Old 09-10-2014, 02:10 PM
John Hafer John Hafer is offline
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I did not know ABC used TK-27 film chains. All of my ads show GE color film chains although I have an old RCA ad from 1955 that shows a B&W RCA TK-21 film camera connected to a RCA 35mm film projector so I know ABC did use RCA equipment (as well as others).

I am not at home right now but somewhere at home I have a link that explains how ABC started colorcasting. From what I remember (and I could be wrong), when ABC started to colorcast in September 1962 with the Jetsons and Flintstones, they had no color film cameras in NY so they had to have their LA broadcast center (that had a RCA TK-26) show the programs and microwave them across the country to NY for network feeds. It was not until seven months later (April 1963) when ABC installed the GE color film cameras in NY that they were finally able to originate colorcasts from NY.

We got our first color TV in the fall of 1963 and I spent many of hours watching color back in those days and could actually tell what brand of color film camera a station had by just watching their film broadcasts. RCA TK-26 and GE looked similar, but TK-27 films looked way different and were awful compared to the GE and older RCA TK-26. TK-27s were washed out, low in contrast and saturation and did not the "wow" look of the others. I have read since that even NBC did not want to use the TK-27s for the same reason and kept the TK-26s going until the TK-28 3 tube film cameras came out later.
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  #42  
Old 09-10-2014, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Ballard View Post
Frank Marx later went off to run ABTO, the lenticular film company formed by ABC and Todd-AO.
What was ABTO's goal?

Lenticular projection screens (for super brightness theatrical) or
Lenticular camera film (for easy-to-process hot color kines on B&W film stock) or
Lenticular film for front projection (instead of rear screen projection for process shots during live or taped shows.)??

(Of the three only the first was a success.)

I worked at ABC NY, from 1965 to 1968, but in Film Services (450 West 56th) and not Engineering and this is news to me. In 1965, almost all of our kines were B&W. In fact, at the time, all of ABC's 35mm and 16mm network air prints included B&W protection copies of color video tape commercials as a back up if the video tape recorders went belly up.

James.
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  #43  
Old 09-10-2014, 11:42 PM
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Can't find your $200 TK-40/41 hiding in the basement of some retired engineer from West Oatmeal? Don't want a TK-42/43 along with everyone else in the day? Now you can blaze a trail in broadcasting history collecting with your own GE 250/350/400 because the seller does not know what it is. Neither do I as it is not mine.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-GE-Gener...item20d72c3072

HTF=Hard To Find.
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“Once you eliminate the impossible...whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Sherlock Holmes.

Last edited by Dave A; 09-10-2014 at 11:43 PM. Reason: text
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  #44  
Old 09-15-2014, 04:43 PM
J Ballard J Ballard is offline
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Hi All-

ABTO's idea was to save money on remote color film acquisition for newsgathering using B&W negative film. This was in the days of 2-1/2 U.S. television networks, and ABC was struggling to convert to color origination. They even engaged their Boston affiliate, WNAC, as a testing partner.

The idea was not successful, and ABTO folded quickly.

When the ABC Lab closed in 2010, they gave me the ABTO collection of press clippings in a large binder. It's at the Museum of Broadcast Technology in Woonsocket, RI.

James, you must have known Ed Messina?

John, there is a picture of RCA TK-21s in NY coupled to TP-35 projectors that appeared in RCA Broadcast News.

Re: TK-27. This camera was not popular at the networks, even at RCA owned NBC. The TK-26 was the mainstay at NBC, and other places, for network origination. In the late 1970s, the TK-27s in Burbank were assigned to KNBC news and not used by the network. The 26s had FET preamps built by Technical Maintenance and were fitted with Dynasciences image enhancers, but still used TX-1 encoders. These chains were retired around 1980.

The TK-27 relied on auto target mode in unmanned operation, but obtaining good tracking was difficult in my experience. Later, Beston Electronics introduced a neutral density wheel kit for use with the 27, and it seemed to do the job. An RCA field engineer once told me that the ND wheel on those kits wasn't really "neutral."

Some felt that the lag on the 27 was very good, as the tubes were hit with a high level of illumination (no ND wheel). Some added Grass Valley, CBS, or RCA aperture compensators (2H) and these made a big difference in the look of the camera. Registration on this camera was never very good, but it was a reliable film camera.

There are a couple of ABC veterans still alive who might know about the GE film chains. I'll see if I can hunt them down.

Regards,

JB
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  #45  
Old 09-17-2014, 08:52 AM
John Hafer John Hafer is offline
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J Ballard, it would be great if you could tack down some ABC veterans and ask them about the early days of color broadcasting.

It was interesting in that when ABC started color broadcasts in September of 1962, they only showed a couple of shows in color, (The Flintstones and The Jetsons). Then for the 1963 season, they added Wagon Train and The Greatest Show on Earth and some movies. But the following year, Wagon Train went back to B&W and ABC reduced their color broadcast schedule.

It was not until the 1965 season that ABC (and finally CBS) went with many color programs.

See this link: http://www.novia.net/~ereitan/studios.html

for some interesting information on early color history. Be sure to scroll down to ABC color studios.
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