Videokarma.org

Go Back   Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums > Early Color Television

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 11-19-2015, 03:26 PM
Username1's Avatar
Username1 Username1 is offline
Not sure how I got here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Orange County NY
Posts: 3,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findm-Keepm View Post
They do run warm, but if you have melting/dripping wax, one of three problems come to mind:

1. Too much cathode current through the 6JE6/6LQ6 - should be less than 250mA, preferably the lowest the efficiency (linearity) coil will adjust to.

2. The horizontal drive signal is mis-shapen. Caps, out of tolerance resistors, or a weak 6CG7/6FQ7 can cause the "on" time to increase, which ups the current through the fly.

3. Too much load on the fly - bad/wrong boost rectifier (it requires a "fast" rectifier for Boosted B+, a typical silicon diode won't do), bad focus rectifier (my CTC16 has an R-2AV2 silicon replacement, eliminating the focus rectifier filament load from the fly), and even a shorted turn or two in the focus coil can increase the focus current, but still yield good focus range.

Also, make sure the B+ is the correct level - today's higher line voltages increase all the voltages in vintage sets. A dropping resistor add (complicated) or running on a variac (easiest - set it for 110 VAC and you should be good) are suggested as fixes.

Cheers,

These are probably the most important things you can do before you get
into modifying the circuit design.... But what if you wanted more protection?

Electrically transformers are made up of a pure inductance component and a
resistive component, It's the resistive component that ends up getting hot.
It's the inefficient part of the wire we can't do anything about inside the
flyback....

I'm wondering, If you wanted to shave an extra 20ma. off the current running
through the flyback, could ya do it be adding possibly 2 - 10 Ohm, @ 10 to 20
watt wire wound resistor to the horizontal output cathode circuit, and
possibly shift some of that heat to the resistor and away from the transformer....?

Anyone with one of these sets on the bench willing to test it ? Naturally,
you would have to be sure it didn't cause any width problems... Etc....

Not sure if it should be in the cathode circuit, or on the business winding
on the flyback supply, probably not too smart to put in in there on the plate
cap end.... Maybe on the other side of that..... I don't have a schematic
for that set, so can't come up with the exact point.....

Anyway, my thinking is, if the resistive component in the flyback "primary"
is say 20 Ohms, and you add a 5 Ohm resistor, will you shift enough heat
off the transformer to have it not melt the wax....? And still not effect
the rest of the set materially.....?

.
__________________
Yes you can call me "Squirrel boy"
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-19-2015, 04:22 PM
walterbeers walterbeers is offline
Old TVs are better!
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanine View Post
So it looks like Tom (Electronic M) has brought life back to my CTC16 that I regretted buying. I was so mad about it I didn't even want to touch it. Long story there.

The one thing I noticed, and Tom did as well, is the flyback get's very hot after awhile and starts to drip wax. This is about after an hour on for him, and an hour on for me when I noticed it was hot. It's set correctly and Tom will chime in on that, or you can check the last parts of the CTC16 thread and see.

Do RCA Fly's just run really hot? And if so, would it hurt anything if I cut open the flyback box and installed a small computer fan to it externally, to suck cool air though the box so the Fly isn't sitting in there melting it self to death?

I was also thinking of putting a small computer fan on the top of the HV cage in my 1954 CTC2B, 21CT55 21 inch color. I don't see where it would cause any harm. Yes, I have always thought that around 210 ma was about the max that the cathode current should be at. The HV cage on that old set is completely enclosed except for a hole in the top with a "chimney cap", in which I could install a fan. Possibly the reason that HV cages as so tightly enclosed it to reduce x-radiation.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1254.jpg (76.0 KB, 31 views)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-19-2015, 04:24 PM
Findm-Keepm's Avatar
Findm-Keepm Findm-Keepm is offline
Followin' the Rules...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Username1 View Post
These are probably the most important things you can do before you get
into modifying the circuit design.... But what if you wanted more protection?

Electrically transformers are made up of a pure inductance component and a
resistive component, It's the resistive component that ends up getting hot.
It's the inefficient part of the wire we can't do anything about inside the
flyback....

I'm wondering, If you wanted to shave an extra 20ma. off the current running
through the flyback, could ya do it be adding possibly 2 - 10 Ohm, @ 10 to 20
watt wire wound resistor to the horizontal output cathode circuit, and
possibly shift some of that heat to the resistor and away from the transformer....?

Anyone with one of these sets on the bench willing to test it ? Naturally,
you would have to be sure it didn't cause any width problems... Etc....

Not sure if it should be in the cathode circuit, or on the business winding
on the flyback supply, probably not too smart to put in in there on the plate
cap end.... Maybe on the other side of that..... I don't have a schematic
for that set, so can't come up with the exact point.....

Anyway, my thinking is, if the resistive component in the flyback "primary"
is say 20 Ohms, and you add a 5 Ohm resistor, will you shift enough heat
off the transformer to have it not melt the wax....? And still not effect
the rest of the set materially.....?

.
No effect at all. Think about it, when you put a milliammeter in the circuit to check the current, you are adding the DC resistance of the meter, which is several hundred ohms, and you still have 200 mA in the circuit.
__________________
Brian
USN RET (Avionics / Cal)
CET- Consumer Repair and Avionics ('88)
"Capacitor Cosmetologist since '79"

When fuses go to work, they quit!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-19-2015, 05:11 PM
Username1's Avatar
Username1 Username1 is offline
Not sure how I got here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Orange County NY
Posts: 3,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findm-Keepm View Post
No effect at all. Think about it, when you put a milliammeter in the circuit to check the current, you are adding the DC resistance of the meter, which is several hundred ohms, and you still have 200 mA in the circuit.
I don't think this is true at all.... Resistance of 1 - 4 Ohms max,
Several Hundred Ohms and you strongly change what the meter is actually
reading. Most good meter movements are Micro-Ampers full scale, so reading
200Ma, the current handling resistor should be pretty small.

For a current reading meter to be highest in accuracy, it would have to present
as close to zero resistance to the circuit as possible..... Just as in measuring
voltage, the meter should present as close as possible to infinite resistance
as possible to the circuit.... That is why VTVM's and digital's are choice for
a lot of really accurate DC voltage use especially, because of high resistance
on input...

.
__________________
Yes you can call me "Squirrel boy"

Last edited by Username1; 11-19-2015 at 05:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-19-2015, 05:30 PM
Findm-Keepm's Avatar
Findm-Keepm Findm-Keepm is offline
Followin' the Rules...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,832
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_coot88 View Post
On a side note, when using a milliameter in the cathode leg (an analog meter that is), it's not necessary to put a cap across the meter, contrary to popular belief.
Odd, because RCA, Jack Darr, and Carl Babcoke all call for a .22uF (RCA) or .47uF (Darr and Babcoke) capacitor in parallel to the meter.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/...-Page-0084.pdf

What is your rationale? I know theirs - to prevent the inductive load of the meter from becoming resonant - hence, they shunt it with a bypass cap to ground, effectively eliminating the possibility. My Save the Flyback tester has a .47uf/600V across the meter

Your #39 lamp tester was in a May, 1970 Radio Electronics article - they show how to build an efficiency tester, using the #39 bulb. My EBY tester used a #44, and was able to forgo the odd lamp.
__________________
Brian
USN RET (Avionics / Cal)
CET- Consumer Repair and Avionics ('88)
"Capacitor Cosmetologist since '79"

When fuses go to work, they quit!
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #21  
Old 11-19-2015, 06:11 PM
Username1's Avatar
Username1 Username1 is offline
Not sure how I got here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Orange County NY
Posts: 3,584
If it's a good meter - the movement is far removed from the circuit, but the cap
is most likely insurance so no sharp spike makes it to the movement....
A spike that may occur if one lead is accidentally lifted while the tv is on....
It's unlikely the movement's inductance comes into play as it is bypassed by a
resistor of small value, 1 -2 Ohms, and then further hidden in a series resistor network....

But I can see that the possibility of the high frequency and unknown internal
components to the meter could cause resonance and effect the accuracy of the
reading.... So Yes I can agree on the resonance possibility....

.
__________________
Yes you can call me "Squirrel boy"

Last edited by Username1; 11-19-2015 at 06:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-19-2015, 07:41 PM
old_coot88 old_coot88 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findm-Keepm View Post
What is your rationale? I know theirs - to prevent the inductive load of the meter from becoming resonant - hence, they shunt it with a bypass cap to ground, effectively eliminating the possibility. My Save the Flyback tester has a .47uf/600V across the meter.
Rationale for needing no cap would be- the actual DC resistance of the instrument (e.g. Simpson 260) is very low when measuring current. The higher the current range, the lower the resistance as lower and lower shunt values are switched in. The instrument is functionally a dead short when measuring current.
So having a cap across it is fine as a 'feel good' measure, but no actual need for it.

The movement is gonna 'see' raw, unfiltered spikey waveforms anyway when the instrument is measuring voltage, and is none the worse off for it.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-19-2015, 08:05 PM
Phil Nelson's Avatar
Phil Nelson Phil Nelson is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by walterbeers View Post
I don't see where it would cause any harm.
A little cooling can't hurt, if you don't mind the noise. I tried a little fan inside the back of my Predicta barberpole set, but quickly took it out because the noise bugged me.

Also, air carries dust, so the more air you force through an interior, the more dirt that may accumulate. I remember cleaning out old desktop computers that were plugged almost solid with dust bunnies. Those computers probably ran for more hours per day than the typical color roundie, however.

Phil Nelson
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-19-2015, 08:39 PM
andy andy is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,004
...

Last edited by andy; 11-20-2021 at 03:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-20-2015, 07:30 AM
roundscreen roundscreen is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: buffalo ny
Posts: 377
OK I am confused. What else is new. Are there two threads on this ctc 16? Did Tom replace the power supply electrolytic caps? If not I would start there. A quick check would be to hook up a dvd to the set. Put it on pause and see if there is a slight wave in the picture. If you want to use the set as every day watcher, They should be replaced any way. The fly will get hot with the 3a3 sitting on top of it but you should not see wax dripping out of it. Your test pattern is really cool. Must make it a lot easier to do convergence
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #26  
Old 11-20-2015, 10:05 AM
ohohyodafarted's Avatar
ohohyodafarted ohohyodafarted is offline
Bob Galanter
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Whitefish Bay, Wi (Milwaukee)
Posts: 1,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by walterbeers View Post
I was also thinking of putting a small computer fan on the top of the HV cage in my 1954 CTC2B, 21CT55 21 inch color. I don't see where it would cause any harm. Yes, I have always thought that around 210 ma was about the max that the cathode current should be at. The HV cage on that old set is completely enclosed except for a hole in the top with a "chimney cap", in which I could install a fan. Possibly the reason that HV cages as so tightly enclosed it to reduce x-radiation.
I did add a small fan to the HV cage on my CT55 and it made a huge difference in keeping the fan cool to the touch. I was also concerned about the noise, but I found a small low noise 2.25" fan at Mouser. Look for a fan with low noise and low air volume. I made a round hole in the side of the HV cage and connected it to the switched side of the incomming AC. You can hear it a bit at start up when the sound is not on but when the audio is at normal room volume it can not be heard at all.

The original flyback got wiped out shortly after the set was restored, and I did not want to chance that the UBER RARE replacement would get fried. So I added the fan and the flyback runs cool to the touch now.
__________________
Vacuum tubes are used in Wisconsin to help heat your house.

New Web Site under developement
ME http://AntiqueTvGuy.com
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-20-2015, 06:20 PM
Electronic M's Avatar
Electronic M Electronic M is offline
M is for Memory
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pewaukee/Delafield Wi
Posts: 14,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findm-Keepm View Post
They do run warm, but if you have melting/dripping wax, one of three problems come to mind:

1. Too much cathode current through the 6JE6/6LQ6 - should be less than 250mA, preferably the lowest the efficiency (linearity) coil will adjust to.

2. The horizontal drive signal is mis-shapen. Caps, out of tolerance resistors, or a weak 6CG7/6FQ7 can cause the "on" time to increase, which ups the current through the fly.

3. Too much load on the fly - bad/wrong boost rectifier (it requires a "fast" rectifier for Boosted B+, a typical silicon diode won't do), bad focus rectifier (my CTC16 has an R-2AV2 silicon replacement, eliminating the focus rectifier filament load from the fly), and even a shorted turn or two in the focus coil can increase the focus current, but still yield good focus range. You can also eliminate the filament load from the 3A3C by using a R-3A3/ECG508 silicon replacement.

Also, make sure the B+ is the correct level - today's higher line voltages increase all the voltages in vintage sets. A dropping resistor add (complicated) or running on a variac (easiest - set it for 110 VAC and you should be good) are suggested as fixes.

Cheers,
It is running slightly less than 200mA, on the 6LQ6. I have not checked parts in the horizontal osc/drive system (aside from the 6CG7 which is quite strong) or the waveform. Don't know if my boost rect is silicon or what, I'd have to check that.....If it ain't then the only way I can put a 'fast' diode in is if I happen to have one in the parts I've scrapped off BPC sets. I don't stock any other new diodes that can take the voltage and current, and I don't buy parts online. I don't have any SS 3A3 or 2AV2 substitutes either.

AC at the outlet the set plugs into here with it on is 117VAC. I will look for a high line voltage primary tap on the transformer.

My thoughts on adding a fan are that one should add a Heppa filter in the air intake to limit dust intake.
__________________
Tom C.

Zenith: The quality stays in EVEN after the name falls off!
What I want. --> http://www.videokarma.org/showpost.p...62&postcount=4
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-20-2015, 08:50 PM
Arcanine's Avatar
Arcanine Arcanine is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Lake Geneva, Wisconsin
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
It is running slightly less than 200mA, on the 6LQ6. I have not checked parts in the horizontal osc/drive system (aside from the 6CG7 which is quite strong) or the waveform. Don't know if my boost rect is silicon or what, I'd have to check that.....If it ain't then the only way I can put a 'fast' diode in is if I happen to have one in the parts I've scrapped off BPC sets. I don't stock any other new diodes that can take the voltage and current, and I don't buy parts online. I don't have any SS 3A3 or 2AV2 substitutes either.

AC at the outlet the set plugs into here with it on is 117VAC. I will look for a high line voltage primary tap on the transformer.

My thoughts on adding a fan are that one should add a Heppa filter in the air intake to limit dust intake.
The flyback was getting really really hot even before he changed out the diodes. Even before the set was working even half way correct, the fly kept getting really hot on me.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-22-2015, 03:22 PM
Fant's Avatar
Fant Fant is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 48
I use thermal joint compound or grease to aid in heat transfer from transformer frame to TV chassis.
__________________
"You want it WHEN?"
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:21 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©Copyright 2012 VideoKarma.org, All rights reserved.