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  #1  
Old 06-18-2017, 06:09 PM
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Boobtubeman Boobtubeman is offline
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Philco 16/16b

Picked this up at a yard sale Saturday...And it was HEAVY...

Tubes all tested well, chassis label says 16. whats left of the tube chart says 16b...

Hoping the voice coil is okay as the cone is complete doo doo...

what are your experiences with overhauling this model??

The riders seems a bit hard to follow, is there a better schematic??

Lend me your input...

SR
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  #2  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:31 PM
ZenithDude88 ZenithDude88 is offline
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Originally Posted by Boobtubeman View Post
Picked this up at a yard sale Saturday...And it was HEAVY...

Tubes all tested well, chassis label says 16. whats left of the tube chart says 16b...

Hoping the voice coil is okay as the cone is complete doo doo...

what are your experiences with overhauling this model??

The riders seems a bit hard to follow, is there a better schematic??

Lend me your input...

SR
Your Philco is from the late 1920s between 1927-1929 and with as crispy looking as your speaker is you'll likely either need to source a new cone and replace the old cone assembly yourself (which will be a pain seeing as this is an early paper cone speaker) or try and source a new speaker (even harder because they don't show up that often on ebay). I don't have any experience personally with overhauling pre-WWII radios but from what I've read and heard they can be kind of tricky because sometimes the capacitors for the tuner assembly were potted in a bakelite box that was packed with tar (Philco was especially notorious for this)and this can be quite tricky to handle.

With as bad of condition as this unit is in I would of passed on it because of the fact that this unit will require a lot more work and effort to refurbish than its worth.
I had to do this recently when a local antique mall had a late 1920s RCA tabletop radio for sale in their shop for $15 which I thought that was a bargain until I saw the condition of the cabinet and the guts, the cabinet had been water damaged severely to the point that the veneer was peeling off the cabinet and the guts where severely damaged by mice and deteriorated wire insulation among other things which I had not the time nor expertise to deal with so I ended up passing on it.

Although if you have more experience in woodworking and speaker repair and have the patience to replace old deteriorated wire then you did fine in saving this unit.
But since I've only been working on antique radios for about 10 years as a side hobby and I know nothing about how to repair veneer work on a radio cabinet and I don't have the patience it
takes to remove and replace hundreds of feet worth of deteriorated/mice chewed wires in a radio I would never even attempt to restore a radio like this.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:33 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
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Originally Posted by ZenithDude88 View Post
Your Philco is from the late 1920s between 1927-1929 and with as crispy looking as your speaker is you'll likely either need to source a new cone and replace the old cone assembly yourself (which will be a pain seeing as this is an early paper cone speaker) or try and source a new speaker (even harder because they don't show up that often on ebay). I don't have any experience personally with overhauling pre-WWII radios but from what I've read and heard they can be kind of tricky because sometimes the capacitors for the tuner assembly were potted in a bakelite box that was packed with tar (Philco was especially notorious for this)and this can be quite tricky to handle.

With as bad of condition as this unit is in I would of passed on it because of the fact that this unit will require a lot more work and effort to refurbish than its worth.
I had to do this recently when a local antique mall had a late 1920s RCA tabletop radio for sale in their shop for $15 which I thought that was a bargain until I saw the condition of the cabinet and the guts, the cabinet had been water damaged severely to the point that the veneer was peeling off the cabinet and the guts where severely damaged by mice and deteriorated wire insulation among other things which I had not the time nor expertise to deal with so I ended up passing on it.

Although if you have more experience in woodworking and speaker repair and have the patience to replace old deteriorated wire then you did fine in saving this unit.
But since I've only been working on antique radios for about 10 years as a side hobby and I know nothing about how to repair veneer work on a radio cabinet and I don't have the patience it
takes to remove and replace hundreds of feet worth of deteriorated/mice chewed wires in a radio I would never even attempt to restore a radio like this.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Your 2 cents worth isn't worth quite that!
The Philco 16 series is a 1935 or '36 model and a very impressive set.
A very high performance 11 tube chassis.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:55 AM
WISCOJIM WISCOJIM is offline
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Originally Posted by ZenithDude88 View Post
With as bad of condition as this unit is in I would of passed on it because of the fact that this unit will require a lot more work and effort to refurbish than its worth.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Originally Posted by dieseljeep View Post
Your 2 cents worth isn't worth quite that!
The Philco 16 series is a 1935 or '36 model and a very impressive set.
A very high performance 11 tube chassis.
I agree Dave, that was a very dim evaluation of a high quality set that may need relatively easy work as the cabinet appears as though it may be in good condition which is often the hardest thing to fix. Done several 16's myself, with a little patience and good work habits, they are not that difficult to do. And seeing how the owner already has the set, there is no reason not to use this set with the Bakelite blocks as a great learning experience.

.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:31 PM
ZenithDude88 ZenithDude88 is offline
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Originally Posted by WISCOJIM View Post
I agree Dave, that was a very dim evaluation of a high quality set that may need relatively easy work as the cabinet appears as though it may be in good condition which is often the hardest thing to fix. Done several 16's myself, with a little patience and good work habits, they are not that difficult to do. And seeing how the owner already has the set, there is no reason not to use this set with the Bakelite blocks as a great learning experience.

.
I didn't say he couldn't I was just saying if it were me (and since I don't have much experience with pre-war radios mostly post war radios) I would of passed on it because from what I saw in the picture the speaker was trashed to the point that there was nothing left of it say for 2 pieces hanging on by a thread so to speak (and repairing that speaker or sourcing a "new" one can be quite difficult especially trying to source another speaker like it had in there originally.
I know for a fact that my 1932 vintage Cathedral radio I have had a damaged speaker that thankfully was still fully intact enough for a simple unbleached coffee filter paper repair but if I wouldn't of been able to of been repaired, I looked to see if another speaker like it could of been sourced just in case, and sure enough it couldn't, because of it being a 1930s Utah speaker and those are rarer than hen's teeth.

The Grille Cloth is also missing which if you don't know what it had in there orginally then it can be hard to get the right grille cloth for the unit.

The cabinet from what I could see while no veneer is peeling off, the original finish appears to be shot which trying to refinish these old Cathedral radio cabinets can be tricky especially the fancier ones because you have to try and get the finish to go on evenly within all of those little crevices in the moulding without it dripping and even stripping those cabinets can be a pain because of those various crevices in the fancy moulding.
Anyways I was just saying that if it were me I would of passed on something that were in that kind of condition because with my expertise level (which is pretty much non-existent when it comes to working on pre-war radios) I wouldn't of bothered with it unless it was known to be an extremely easy radio to service.

That's all I was saying, I wasn't implying that it was a bad radio or that the radio wasn't a high end radio or whatever, I was just saying that in my position if I saw a radio like that that had a severely damaged speaker and no grille cloth and unknown condition guts, I wouldn't personally bother with it.

Referring back to my experience with seeing a late 1920s RCA Table Radio (Tombstone style) at an antique mall for an extremely good price but then it was because the cabinet was trashed (severe water damage and severe veneer peeling issues with the cabinet alone).

Then it looked like the guts had mice living in it several times in its life as the chassis was severely corroded by mice pee and wires were chewed clear through in critical areas including in the IF Cans, and the original cloth cord was pretty much gone and the dial string was broken and the tuning capacitor was seized up (you couldn't turn the tuning capacitor with your hands) which is why I had to pass up on the radio even though it may very well have been an extremely valuable unit once fixed up.
But to even restore that unit one would of had to sink more money into the unit than it might of been worth.

And the OP was asking for people's opinions on the unit, and so I gave my opinion on it.
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  #6  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:15 PM
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Electronic M Electronic M is offline
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IIRC Philco repair bench had a good table of block cap part numbers with an explanation of their contents (my go-to resource), but I just checked and I can't find it, along with a good portion of their site...What happened to them?



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithDude88 View Post
I didn't say he couldn't I was just saying if it were me (and since I don't have much experience with pre-war radios mostly post war radios) I would of passed on it because from what I saw in the picture the speaker was trashed to the point that there was nothing left of it say for 2 pieces hanging on by a thread so to speak (and repairing that speaker or sourcing a "new" one can be quite difficult especially trying to source another speaker like it had in there originally.
There are many places that specialize in re-coning speakers. If the voice and field (if not PM type) coils have continuity, that is a good option.

If the speaker is beyond professional help there is always a way to spec a new one (of any vintage including brand new). The most important thing is geometry and diameter. If it is the same mounting size you don't have to modify the cabinet, and there are ways to make it work electrically. Getting the same voice coil impedance is important to reusing the same audio output transformer, but there are ways around that. Speaker impedance matching transformers exist, and one can spec new audio output transformers by knowing/finding the plate impedance of the original and getting one that matches that to the impedance of the new speaker. If the original had a field coil you can use a PM type speaker and substitute the field coil in the power supply circuit with a power resistor or preferably a choke of similar impedance....Sure it is part of the power supply filter circuit, but there is a lot of fudge factor in those designs, and if you've got some spare parts to play with it can be arrived at easily with experimentation. Knowing theory of operation, and associated maths helps the process greatly and helps ensure it will work best the first try.

It is good to know your skill level, but challenging yourself, learning new techniques, and approaching things by not assuming things are impossible/impractical will help you grow...Thirst for knowledge helps too.

...That said if you told me you were captinclock back under a new user name, I'd believe you...Your writing style/personality feels rather similar.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseljeep View Post
Your 2 cents worth isn't worth quite that!
The Philco 16 series is a 1935 or '36 model and a very impressive set.
A very high performance 11 tube chassis.
+1

Hundreds of feet of wire in a table radio?...Lol come on, seriously?

Those block caps are easy...With the right screw driver I can chip the guts out without heat in under a minute.



Most block cap era Philcos I only use the schematic to determine the pin-out of the ant and osc coils*. Just change the lytics, re-stuff the block caps using one of the internet references to determine their contents/pinout and if the ant and osc coils are good the chassis should work. Often the single layer ant and or osc coils are open (2 of 3 60 chassis I've serviced, and 2 of 2 80 chassis were open)...Often the break is near an end so deleting the corroded turn or two and reconnecting the end will fix it, but I've had some where the whole winding was full of opens....Those I just count the turns, remove the old and rewind the same number of turns with Radio Shack phono pickup wire (always works like a charm).
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  #8  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:03 PM
ZenithDude88 ZenithDude88 is offline
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Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
+1

Hundreds of feet of wire in a table radio?...Lol come on, seriously?

Those block caps are easy...With the right screw driver I can chip the guts out without heat in under a minute.



Most block cap era Philcos I only use the schematic to determine the pin-out of the ant and osc coils*. Just change the lytics, re-stuff the block caps using one of the internet references to determine their contents/pinout and if the ant and osc coils are good the chassis should work. Often the single layer ant and or osc coils are open (2 of 3 60 chassis I've serviced, and 2 of 2 80 chassis were open)...Often the break is near an end so deleting the corroded turn or two and reconnecting the end will fix it, but I've had some where the whole winding was full of opens....Those I just count the turns, remove the old and rewind the same number of turns with Radio Shack phono pickup wire (always works like a charm).
Well some of the old radios I've worked on seemed like they had hundreds of feet of wire in them, especially when you have to replace every single wire in the unit that was chewed up by mice or the rubber insulation inside the cloth outer insulation was crumbling and exposing wire.
Actually if you count all of the hair thin copper wire in the IF cans in these old radios then yes technically these radios do have hundreds of feet of wire in them, someone on here mentioned that one of the IF cans in one of these radios has as much as 1,000 feet of wire in a single IF Transformer winding and most of these old radios had as many as 5 IF Transformers in them (especially the higher end models).
So I'm not really that far off by saying hundreds of feet of wire in an old radio, yes I agree that the interconnect wires on the underside of the radio chassis maybe doesn't amount to 100' (but close though in some of the higher end models) but like I said when you count the wire used in IF coil windings and the power transformer, and the speaker's output transformer and voice coil, then yes the radios easily can have hundreds of feet of wire in them.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:06 PM
WISCOJIM WISCOJIM is offline
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...
Good Grief!

.
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2017, 10:19 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
+1

Hundreds of feet of wire in a table radio?...Lol come on, seriously?

Those block caps are easy...With the right screw driver I can chip the guts out without heat in under a minute.



Most block cap era Philcos I only use the schematic to determine the pin-out of the ant and osc coils*. Just change the lytics, re-stuff the block caps using one of the internet references to determine their contents/pinout and if the ant and osc coils are good the chassis should work. Often the single layer ant and or osc coils are open (2 of 3 60 chassis I've serviced, and 2 of 2 80 chassis were open)...Often the break is near an end so deleting the corroded turn or two and reconnecting the end will fix it, but I've had some where the whole winding was full of opens....Those I just count the turns, remove the old and rewind the same number of turns with Radio Shack phono pickup wire (always works like a charm).
I talked to an old-time radio repairman, who had just finished a mid-30's Philco radio. I inquired if he replaced the bakelite block caps, He replied, that they never went bad.
I read, that they were "vacuum impregnated", so they did have a long life, but after 80+ years???
I use my $8.88 Harbor Freight heat gun and heat them a bit and the guts pop right out, with little effort.
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  #11  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:49 PM
Gregb Gregb is offline
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The Philco 16/16B is a great radio that will provide superb reception once properly restored. They are a little more work because of the bakelite blocks but its not difficult to restore just maybe a little time consuming. Worth the effort without a doubt.

Gregb
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:15 PM
ZenithDude88 ZenithDude88 is offline
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The Philco 16/16B is a great radio that will provide superb reception once properly restored. They are a little more work because of the bakelite blocks but its not difficult to restore just maybe a little time consuming. Worth the effort without a doubt.

Gregb
I agree that these early cathedral radios are excellent performers when properly restored (and great DX'ers as well with the right amount of wire extended out the window) but as I was saying that for the experienced radio restorer this is a great unit but for people who are just getting into radio restoration these might not be a very good unit to attempt to restore as a beginner (not familar with his expertise level which is why I said what I did as a general statement).
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:50 PM
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Boobtubeman Boobtubeman is offline
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Rest easy guys, NOT my FIRST RADIO...

Did a 37 Delco R1128 that was molested and half assed and got it going..

Looks like i have the 16-121 variety because of the #80 rectifier... The cabinet is in pretty good shape (no peeling) As long as parts are clearly marked, i should be okay.. Hoping the speaker damage is limited to the cone (center still has its flex) Perhaps i can sacrifice a speaker and glue a new cone onto the old setup..

I admit the bakelite blocks have me concerned, havent dismantled it yet, how many blocks am i gonna encounter in this unit? anyone have pics? I see a large rectangular can screwed on the back of the chassis, i presume this one is "tar potted"... Sure doesnt look like an e-cap. Perhaps its the filter condenser bank?

My challenge might be the riders copy on NOSTALGIA, kinda hard to make out some of the notes in the drawings, but im trying...

Thanks for the input and keep em coming, Much appreciated

SR

Last edited by Boobtubeman; 06-18-2017 at 11:53 PM.
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  #14  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:36 AM
ZenithDude88 ZenithDude88 is offline
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Originally Posted by Boobtubeman View Post
Rest easy guys, NOT my FIRST RADIO...

Did a 37 Delco R1128 that was molested and half assed and got it going..

Looks like i have the 16-121 variety because of the #80 rectifier... The cabinet is in pretty good shape (no peeling) As long as parts are clearly marked, i should be okay.. Hoping the speaker damage is limited to the cone (center still has its flex) Perhaps i can sacrifice a speaker and glue a new cone onto the old setup..

I admit the bakelite blocks have me concerned, havent dismantled it yet, how many blocks am i gonna encounter in this unit? anyone have pics? I see a large rectangular can screwed on the back of the chassis, i presume this one is "tar potted"... Sure doesnt look like an e-cap. Perhaps its the filter condenser bank?

My challenge might be the riders copy on NOSTALGIA, kinda hard to make out some of the notes in the drawings, but im trying...

Thanks for the input and keep em coming, Much appreciated

SR
I had for a while a Delco R1128 as well but mine was in such bad shape that i didn't end up getting mine going sadly enough. I ended up using it for parts (salvaged the tubes outs of it).
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  #15  
Old 06-19-2017, 05:29 PM
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Boobtubeman Boobtubeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithDude88 View Post
I had for a while a Delco R1128 as well but mine was in such bad shape that i didn't end up getting mine going sadly enough. I ended up using it for parts (salvaged the tubes outs of it).
You dont by chance have the speaker still? i have one unit that one was destroyed in transit..

SR
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