Videokarma.org

Go Back   Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums > Transistor Radio

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 09-22-2015, 12:02 PM
Olorin67 Olorin67 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 919
I worked on a number of different changers, most designs had an Achillies heel or common service issue. The BSR units are easier than some, and usually rdont require complete disassembly. There are some changers that you really need to take apart completely to service properly, BSRs are a picnic to work on compared to a Dual, PE, or Webcor. Most designs have a weak point or two. Or develop issues due to aging. The most trouble free ones I've encountered are later ones from panasonic or Sears Silvertone, later units often had more plastic parts that worked without lubrication, less parts to get gummed up with age.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-22-2015, 08:45 PM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by KentTeffeteller View Post
These changers expected regular use and servicing every 5 years. Zenith used BSR changers only because they could no longer get VM changers (the company's preferred brand, and they'd discontinued their belt/idler drive high end changer design)
Interesting, I never knew that before.
Anyways I had figured out what was wrong with it anyhow, it was a stopper that had seized up which the stopper was used in tandem with the power switch to help the tonearm gauge where it was supposed to go during the changer process along with the size switch, and since that stopper was seized up (dried up lube) it could no longer properly gauge where the tonearm was supposed to drop, so I relubed it with a little 3-in-1 oil and freed it up and now it works fine.

I am quite curious as to why you guys think that lithium grease shouldn't be used to relube a record changer/record player mechanism, because that's what one of the local repair shops near me uses on his repairs and he swears by that stuff, and in fact I have an old Dual 1215 turntable that I had overhauled with him and we used the lithium grease to relube the entire record player mechanism and it works just fine, no problems at all.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-22-2015, 09:10 PM
Olorin67 Olorin67 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 919
lithium is probably Ok, I use a silicone grease called Molycote- it wont dry out over time like some petroleum greases, or so the claim goes. It was expensive stuff ($30 for a small tube)(good to 300 degrees F)- I got a free sample from a vendor). Some types of 3 in 1oil can get gummy over time, or so I've heard. I use zoom spout turbine oil from ace hardware for motor bearings, and it seems to work well for that. for most changer parts i use grease. There is a product called Phonolube that is made for stuff like this as well.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-22-2015, 09:17 PM
Olorin67 Olorin67 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 919
this is the stuff, I will probably try something cheaper if I ever need more, though.
Attached Images
File Type: png Screen Shot 2015-09-22 at 8.13.31 PM.png (22.8 KB, 8 views)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-22-2015, 09:40 PM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olorin67 View Post
lithium is probably Ok, I use a silicone grease called Molycote- it wont dry out over time like some petroleum greases, or so the claim goes. It was expensive stuff ($30 for a small tube)(good to 300 degrees F)- I got a free sample from a vendor). Some types of 3 in 1oil can get gummy over time, or so I've heard. I use zoom spout turbine oil from ace hardware for motor bearings, and it seems to work well for that. for most changer parts i use grease. There is a product called Phonolube that is made for stuff like this as well.
Well I used the non-detergent 3-in-1 oil (the stuff for electric motors that's in the blue can) so I think I should be fine, I just used it to free up the size stop that's all I did I clean most of it out afterwards.

Anyways like I said its working fine now all it was was that the size stop lever that helps to make sure the tonearm drops at the right position in reference to where the size switch is set when the power switch is activated was seized up due to dried up grease so I just freed up that size stop lever with a little 3-in-1 motor oil (the stuff in the blue can) and put her back together again and sure enuogh when I put a record onto the changer and it the reject switch sure enough the tonearm fell exactly at the very beginning of the LP where it was supposed to and when I set the tonearm on the very last track of the record and let it play through the record player triggered exactly as it was supposed to and set the tonearm onto the tonearm rest and shut off the turntable like it was supposed to which it wasn't doing that before.
So it was a pretty successful repair.
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #21  
Old 09-22-2015, 09:43 PM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olorin67 View Post
this is the stuff, I will probably try something cheaper if I ever need more, though.
Yeah, I don't think I could afford $30 a pop just for a small 4 or 5 oz. bottle of lubricant when I can just get something like Lithium grease for $6 for a 30 oz. tube and is just as effective.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-22-2015, 10:07 PM
Findm-Keepm's Avatar
Findm-Keepm Findm-Keepm is offline
Followin' the Rules...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainclock View Post
Yeah, I don't think I could afford $30 a pop just for a small 4 or 5 oz. bottle of lubricant when I can just get something like Lithium grease for $6 for a 30 oz. tube and is just as effective.
Lithium grease is NOT the stuff to use - it reacts with pot metal (a magnesium/zinc alloy, what the cam gear is made out of) and causes it to break-up through cavitation (gets cavities /holes from the pot metal alloying with the lithium). The aviation industry learned this, and shared the study.

The cam gear is BSR-specific, so Lithium might be a good choice for other constructs, but for anything with a pot-metal product, keep it away.

PHONOLUBE - sold at MCM, AES and other fine distributors, and useable on all phono mechanisms. One tube is about 8 or 9 bucks, lasts years. I still have mine I bought in 1983 or 1984...
__________________
Brian
USN RET (Avionics / Cal)
CET- Consumer Repair and Avionics ('88)
"Capacitor Cosmetologist since '79"

When fuses go to work, they quit!

Last edited by Findm-Keepm; 09-22-2015 at 10:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-22-2015, 10:19 PM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Elkhart, Indiana
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Findm-Keepm View Post
Lithium grease is NOT the stuff to use - it reacts with pot metal (a magnesium/zinc alloy, what the cam gear is made out of) and causes it to break-up through cavitation (gets cavities /holes from the pot metal alloying with the lithium). The aviation industry learned this, and shared the study.

The cam gear is BSR-specific, so Lithium might be a good choice for other constructs, but for anything with a pot-metal product, keep it away.

PHONOLUBE - sold at MCM, AES and other fine distributors, and useable on all phono mechanisms. One tube is about 8 or 9 bucks, lasts years. I still have mine I bought in 1983 or 1984...
Well that's funny because that's all the local repair guy uses on all of the record players he repairs, and I'm pretty sure that most of the record players he's repaired had the cam gears you're talking about, but I'm not sure. Although most of the record players he repairs are the single play component record players from the 1970s on which more than likely don't have cam-gears made of pot-metal.
Anyways Pot-metal I think is kind of a poor choice to use for high stress parts like cam-gears or tone-arms because its such a brittle metal and breaks very easily.

I take it that by the mid 1970s when this Zenith radio was made Voice of Music was out of business?
Also why did Zenith discontinue their high-end belt-driven record changer after only being made for a couple of years? I remember seeing a Zenith/Allegro Console Stereo with 8-Track Tape Recorder in it from about 1972 at the local antique mall and the record player in it was a Zenith Belt-driven record changer.

Last edited by Captainclock; 09-22-2015 at 10:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-28-2015, 08:30 PM
KentTeffeteller's Avatar
KentTeffeteller KentTeffeteller is offline
Gimpus Stereophilus!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Athens, TN
Posts: 585
VM made the belt/idler driven high end changer from at least 1958-1968. But only on high end models. VM was used from the beginning of VM to the 1975-1976 era last VM changer production. VM held on a bit longer, but had fallen on hard times. The Allegros didn't have the Zenith made high end changer, it had been discontinued long ago, was very expensive to build.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-28-2015, 08:54 PM
Findm-Keepm's Avatar
Findm-Keepm Findm-Keepm is offline
Followin' the Rules...
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainclock View Post
Well that's funny because that's all the local repair guy uses on all of the record players he repairs, and I'm pretty sure that most of the record players he's repaired had the cam gears you're talking about, but I'm not sure. Although most of the record players he repairs are the single play component record players from the 1970s on which more than likely don't have cam-gears made of pot-metal.
Anyways Pot-metal I think is kind of a poor choice to use for high stress parts like cam-gears or tone-arms because its such a brittle metal and breaks very easily.

I take it that by the mid 1970s when this Zenith radio was made Voice of Music was out of business?
Also why did Zenith discontinue their high-end belt-driven record changer after only being made for a couple of years? I remember seeing a Zenith/Allegro Console Stereo with 8-Track Tape Recorder in it from about 1972 at the local antique mall and the record player in it was a Zenith Belt-driven record changer.
Pot metal was the perfect choice - low cost, high durability, and easily molded to a precise shape. Delrin (what VCR cam gears are made of) wasn't around, and steel would require extensive surface finishing. Most non-factory trained techs go with what they can get away with, most never obtaining a manufacturer manual of any sort to consult for proper maintenance. I've seen turntables come in with all sorts of home or amateurish "repairs" that did not solve the problem, and created more problems. BSR specified two lubes - phono oil (sold by GC and Rawn) and Phonolube, sold by GC. For cleaning, they specified carbon tet, but you couldn't get that in the states, so we used varsol or naptha, depending on what we had. Dual suggested lighter fluid, which is naptha, so we were in the ball park with our degreasing/cleaning.

In the 80s, we could get the BSR 4 speed changers and wood deck for 24.95 at the distributor. One jigsaw, and you could swap out the old, unsupported turntable in a stereo with a new BSR with Tetrad cartridge. They were workhorse changers, for cheap - and damn easy to troubleshoot and repair with the turntable jig.

Zenith discontinued all of their stereo equipment due to dumping by the Japanese companies - it led to the demise of a lot of US consumer electronics companies. There was no one outside factor greater than the dumping in eliminating the Allegro and home audio line for Zenith.
__________________
Brian
USN RET (Avionics / Cal)
CET- Consumer Repair and Avionics ('88)
"Capacitor Cosmetologist since '79"

When fuses go to work, they quit!
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #26  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:03 PM
Olorin67 Olorin67 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 919
VM was mostly out of business by about 1974, Zenith was the last company using VM changers in any volume. Zeniths high end belt drive changer appeared for 1961 models, if I recall right. That is the first version with a cobra shaped tonearm, the first version of the microtouch came out a year later. I think 1969 might have been the last year for it, but only in the highest end models. I think it was expensive for Zenith to make. Its a pity they never put a 4-pole or synchronous motor in it though. In the high end 1960 models, Zenith used a Glaser-Steers changer in a few models, for one model year only. Zenith often used other changers other than VM in the 60's maybe only on one or two models, judging by all the different Zenith changer models in SAMS and Zenith's own service folders that show up on ebay. There's also a service folder for a single play (single play for lp, shows the 45 spindle in the platter like the changer version, so it must have changed 45s only. I'm not sure that model actually got produced, I've never seen one outside of the photo in the SAMS. It also lacks the index arm of the changer version, so it would not have been able to tell the spindle was out of 45s, and repeated the last record. I suspect they realized a single play version wouldn't sell and cancelled it before production, but after service literature had been prepared. Has anyone seen one? or maybe they did try to sell it, and no one bought them.
Around 1979, Zenith sold a higher end changer made by Garrard, at least it looked nice in photos. Zenith used BSR in most 1970s units, they also used Glenburn changers for a couple years.

Last edited by Olorin67; 09-28-2015 at 09:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-05-2018, 08:14 AM
KentTeffeteller's Avatar
KentTeffeteller KentTeffeteller is offline
Gimpus Stereophilus!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Athens, TN
Posts: 585
That single play VM mechanism, was used mainly in the Voice Of Music school phonographs, and a few other phono makers. That was a very good turntable for that job, performed well, reliable, and durable. The Garrard changers used in the Zeniths were usually rebadged Garrard 630S (Unimech mechanism, good when new, PITA to service today). That changer tracks at 3 grams at lightest. BSR's higher end models in that era, were actually better changers.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ęCopyright 2012 VideoKarma.org, All rights reserved.