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Old 01-31-2018, 07:58 AM
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UPDATE . Our new 4K system and calibration

Update, February 11, 2018


The 2018 Winter Olympic Games were presented in 4K Ulta High Definition, HDR and Dolby Atmos surround sound by NBC, SONY and NHK, courtesy of Direct TV satellite transmission service.

Our first observation is that the opening ceremonies presentation in 4K, HDR on Friday, February 9, 2018 were superior to the 4K telecast of the 2018 Rose Bowl presentation reviewed above. The colors in the Rose Bowl presentation tended to be over saturated. Not a hint of over saturation in the opening ceremonies presentation. We believe NHK’s involvement is largely responsible for the superior telecast. They have been involved in UHD (Super High Vision) for decades and in the opening credits the following appeared on our screen: “Presented in Super High Vision by NHK”. The cameras used we believe, were 8K resolution and the broadcast was down converted to 4K. NHK broadcast the 2012 London games in 8K. We watched the 1080i presentation by NBC and the camera shots were different then the 4K presentation.

Below, a few screenshots of the 4K presentation. These shots were taken from a 10 foot or 120 inch screen with a Sony A6300, set for shutter priority. We judge this live telecast to be the best seen in our home to date. Deep saturated colors, pastel colors, excellent detail and dynamic range. We can’t really show you the extended colors and wider dynamic range of HDR on a computer screen. You have to see this presentation live to appreciate the difference. We can tell you it is beautiful, 3D lifelike. We think the two crowd photos do come through and express the deep color and the wider range of color hues. You need a high quality calibrated monitor with DCI P3 color space to see what we are talking about.

The sounds of the music, crowd and athletes were all around us as we watched, courtesy of Dolby Atmos. We will gather up a complete presentation displaying the best of the Olympic Games soon.

With the lower light output of projectors, a high quality display like the LG Signaure 77 inch OLED panel and its higher light output will display HDR better then a home projector. Tone mapping is used to compensate HDR colors on a projector. On the other hand, a 120 inch projector gives you the full threatical experience because you become emmersed in what you are watching and your eyes are tracking moving objects left and right, up and down as you would in a commercial movie theater and you will appreciate the higher resolution and see it! One last note, the projector bulb was set to “low” for these screenshots and so far we have seen no signs of banding.

Tap on this link to open image carousel with full resolution shots. https://visions4netjournal.com/4k/#jp-carousel-4499 Allow a few moments for the image carousel to load. The original calibration post is below.







Greetings. We were scheduled to give a joint presentation with Jerome at the 2016 ETF Convention. At the last minute we cancelled because of a new home purchase and closing. Well we have been remodeling the new home and installed a 4K projection system with Dolby Atmos surround sound. Combined in our new “home theater” we added three early color television consoles and a Du Mont. The theater is about 85% completed.

We authored an article to the 4K page of our website and want to share with you. Tap on this link which will open an image carousel. You can then view any image in full 6000x4000 resolution. https://visions4netjournal.com/4k/#jp-carousel-4326. Give the page time to load. The images in the carousel are somewhat blurry, so tap on the full resolution tab to see full images.

UPDATE, JANUARY 30, 2018

We had our Sony 385ES 4K projector calibrated to ISF specifications on January 20, 2018. The Reference mode was set to REC. 709 color space and the Cinema Film 1 mode was set to to DCI P3 color space with HDR (high dynamic range). At this time, no home projector is capable of producing 10,000 nits of light output which Dolby Cinema HDR specifies. Only cinema projectors for commercial theaters and a few professional projectors are certified for Dolby Vision. The Sony 385ES supports native 4K (4096 x 2160), HDR 10, HLG (Hybred Log Gamma) and HDCP 2.2.


In the calibration charts below a few words of explanation from Mike Hamilton, our ISF technician. “On the HDR report, your projector (as do nearly all consumer machines regardless of price) falls short in EOTF (electro optical transfer function) since the light output is far less than a full dimming array flat panel. That is why your report shows the line “sagging” as compared to the reference. The footlamberts / nits output of a projector is far less than a flat panel. OLEDS come very close to matching the EOTF curve, and the Sony Z9 LCDs do as well.

The RGB balance curve, while having the huge dip, shows flat matched response. The dip is where the PJ “clips” the signal since it cannot apply luminance in the amount the metadata is instructing to do. What is very important, though, is the colors all clip evenly and together, rather than separate and do so at different intervals with different intensity.

In the first Cal report, you can see they were not good at all on the pre-cal pass, but fixed on the calibrated pass. 3% – 5% are considered errors that are in what is called the “minimal perceptible difference” range, where casual observers would not notice or notice but consider these inconsequential.

Delta E uses the same percentile of tolerance for how close a color comes to the standard for that color’s brightness.

Consumer projectors have a high degree of difficulty handling HDR due to the mastering being done on monitors that are LCD or OLED (Dolby Pulsar or the Sony BVM-X300). In the case of the Dolby, there are thousands of control blocks on the 40″ screen which allow fairly precise localization of specular highlights for HDR. In the case of the Sony monitor, the OLED pixels are individually addressable (the Sony is a $45K, 30″ monitor). Since the metadata translates to localized highlights on “zone” controlled consumer sets (the more control blocks and localized zones, the more precision is the highlights…i.e. – a white moon against a black sky background – the set having the better ability to localize the transition edge will have less of a “halo” effect than a poorly controlled set, such as an edge-lit LCD. Now you can see the dilemma a consumer projector faces having a singular, global illumination source (the lamp). It cannot localize to the pixel/group of pixel level for specular highlighting. (And this author’s dilemma in choosing between an OLED panel currently limited to 77 inches or the theaterical experience a projector provides.)

The ONLY projectors that can do Rec-2020 are the DolbyCinema dual machines (Barco and Christie) with the 6P (2X Red Laser, 2X Green Laser, 2X Blue Laser) configuration. The color of the laser primaries are Rec 2020 and they are the only devices that can currently attain those x-y points.

Consumer products use P3 color space, which is the older, but still in use in non-Dolby Cinema, DCI (Digital Cinema Initiatives) color space. It is about 93% of ITU-2020. No content other than DolbyVision theatrical releases are in ITU-2020. UHD Blu-ray is 3840×2160, 10b (bit) color with 4:2:0 chroma up-sampling. Many players upconvert to 12b 4:4:4, which drives other components crazy.


On the CIE chart, ITU-2020 are the three points in the chart. As mentioned, only the 6P twin laser DolbyCinema machines can attain that. Your projector tracks nicely with the white boxes indicating P3 color points. Still not enough light output (even the $60k machine has trouble hitting those) since it is only 5000 lumens, which is about 1,600 nits. DolbyVision reference is 10,000 nits.

Hope this helps…”

The image order is in three columns from left to right. Left column is first. Images in order from top to bottom. Tap on any image to open an image carousel. Tap the full resolution tab to view 6000 X 4000.

Below
ISF calibration set up procedures with pre and post calibration charts: Images 1 to 22.

Home theater: Images 23 to 28.

2018 Grammy Award Show, live, HD 1080i. Rec. 709. Source, CBS television network via Direct TV: Images 29 to 40.

Spiderman Homecoming, 4K, wide color gamut, HDR. Source, ultra high definition Blu Ray disc: Images 41 to 44.

The Martian, 4K, wide color gamut, HDR. Source, ultra high definition Blu Ray disc: Images 42 to 56.

2018 Rose Bowl Parade, live, 4K, wide color gamut, HLG. Source, HGTV via Direct TV: Images 57 to 60.








Images 49 and 50 in column 3 exhibit very good black levels for a projector in its price range. The star fields pop in inky black space. We did not think the camera would pick them up. We are viewing these screenshot images on an iPad Pro 2, 10.5 which has DCI P3 color space.

With HDR, which is perhaps more important then 4K resolution, the viewer can see deeper colors with many more color gradations in each color. For instance without HDR, (8bit) 226 gradations. With HDR, (10 bit) 1024 gradations. HDR extends contrast ratio. Dark scenes look darker, bright objects look brighter which provides more realism. ISF calibration prevents details from being crushed in dark or bright scenes. Remember the “wow” you experienced the first time you saw HDTV? Good HDR is that.

When a movie or TV show is created, the director and cinematographer work with a colorist to give the program the right look. When making movies, the team is able to use the wide palette of the Digital Cinema P3 color space to create gorgeous teals, oranges and violets.

But then comes time to make these movies work on TV. In order to do that, that team essentially “dumbs down” the image, removing dynamic range and limiting color. They get it to look the way they want, given the confines of the HDTV system, and that limited version is what you get on Blu-ray or a download. HDR seeks to bring back the dynamic range and color.

High Frame Rates. For live sports in particular, HDR offers the option to present smoother, more sharply detailed motion with frame rates of 2160/60p or more.

Ultra high definition or 4K and HDR are still in infancy. There are currently new sceams and developments in the works. If we wait, we will never enjoy the benifts 4K has to offer, because after all the next improvement “is just around the corner” and it go’s on and on. This author has reached the decision to “pull the trigger” and install his 4K system.

The next update will focus on the 2018 Winter Olympic Games to be broadcast in 4K by NBC.
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Last edited by etype2; 02-21-2018 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Typo duplicate
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:18 AM
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Since there aren't many people yet who have 4K TVs, most will see the Olympics in regular HD if the broadcast is viewable at all on standard HDTVs. Four-K, a. k. a. UHD, is a TV broadcast format that probably isn't compatible with standard HD televisions, so most folks may see absolutely nothing on their sets except perhaps a notice stating the following: "This program is being broadcast in UHD. Your television is not compatible with this standard."

Sheeesh. First ATSC 3, now this. What on earth may be next? I think the television industry is trying its darnedest to get everyone in the US to buy new TVs every few years, which is why they keep changing the standards every time we turn around--or so it seems. However, NBC stands to lose many thousands of viewers in a few days because, as I said, most of us don't have 4K televisions. NBC is the 4th-rated TV network in America as it is (I know this from having seen old NBC promos on Youtube, one of which even has the audacity to say NBC is actually proud to be #4--sheeesh!); they cannot afford to lose viewers, especially when they are going to be showing a high-profile event such as the Olympics.

I am not a sports fan and do not watch NBC that much except for news and an occasional (I do mean occasional) program, so the Olympics taking over the network in prime time for two weeks next month won't bother me. However, I am thinking, again, of the large number of viewers who will be shut out when they try to watch the Olympics on their fabulously expensive HDTV screens, only to see that notice I mentioned above or, worse, a blank screen. Sports programming, after all, is the main reason many people buy large HDTVs in the first place; many home theaters are already set up for standard HDTV, but not 4K. VK member etype2 in Arizona is one of the lucky ones (and then some; look at all those 4K screens!), but as I said, most folks will be watching the Olympics in standard 16:9 HD, again if they can even see the telecast.

Good grief!
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Old 01-31-2018, 11:35 AM
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We have two UHD sets: one with HDR and one without. Without the media you can't tell the difference. We also have an LCD 3D projector (glasses eat batteries like candy!).
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:19 PM
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Can tests of 4K be done properly? That is, with bitrate reduced to say 5
megabits/sec, as it actually be used outside of movie theaters?
What does it look like (on a large screen 4K display of course)?
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Old 02-25-2018, 04:36 PM
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[QUOTE=dtvmcdonald;3196676]Can tests of 4K be done properly?

Yes. You can see my projector test results posted above by a Level II certified ISF technician.


That is, with bitrate reduced to say 5
megabits/sec, as it actually be used outside of movie theaters?

Yes, as above. The best 4K available outside of a professional studio is from UHD 4K Blu Ray disks offering 10 bit HDR. HLG, Hybred Log Gamma, is a form of HDR used for live 4K broadcasts including ATSC 3.0 soon to roll out. When HLG is displayed on a 2,000 cd/m2 display with a bit depth of 10-bits per sample it can display a range of 200,000:1 or 17.6 stops without visible banding. So far I have seen the Rose Parade, Oympics and NBA basketball in 4K HLG.


What does it look like (on a large screen 4K display of course)?

You can see 6000x4000 resolution photos from the link I provided. The screen size is 10 foot or 120 inches. My DSLR will never convey what it is like to see it real. I tried to describe it above. With good content and HDR, the experience is like when you saw HD for the first time. A friend was watching my system. His comment was “better then at a movie house” There is no pixel structure visible, even if you put your eyes inches away. HDR is more important then 4K resolution.
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Last edited by etype2; 02-26-2018 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Typo. Update to add info about HLG
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:52 AM
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Again I ask ... what about the TEST done on the way an actual show will
be seen on cable TV ... NOT BLU-RAY, NOT in a movie theater, BUT,
I insist on a real signal, that is verified to have a bitrate **no higher than** 5megabits/sec, the way broadcasters and cable companies will send it.

I don't care with it looks like with adequate bitrate. Except in a movie
theater I'll never see that.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtvmcdonald View Post
Again I ask ... what about the TEST done on the way an actual show will
be seen on cable TV ... NOT BLU-RAY, NOT in a movie theater, BUT,
I insist on a real signal, that is verified to have a bitrate **no higher than** 5megabits/sec, the way broadcasters and cable companies will send it.

I don't care with it looks like with adequate bitrate. Except in a movie
theater I'll never see that.
I answered your question. Did you look at the test results on my Calman ISF charts? I provided a link to see them. A smaller high light output panel will produce better results for HDR them my projector.

5mbps won’t cut it. I think what you are talking about is the bit rate of an average HD program. Netflix is streaming about 10 mbps. It varies during the program. It go’s up to 12 mbps. Direct TV is 30 mbps on 4K. These are the only two I’m familiar with. I’ll check on Apple TV. If your going to invest in 4K you want to make sure the chipset in the TV is capable of at least 13 mbps, 18 is better. You need an internet speed of at least 25 mbps. If your going to invest in 4K, why wouldn’t you want the best quality of 4K Blu-Ray? Some televisions display the metadata of the program watched. My Sony has this feature. Having said that, your eyes are the final test.


Update. I looked at the variable bit rates of Spider-Man Homecoming on both 4K Blu-Ray and Apple TV 4K. The Apple TV averages 13 mbps maxing out to 25 mbps and the 4K disc averaged 70 mbps maxing out at 100 mbps.
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Last edited by etype2; 02-27-2018 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Typo. Note to self, proof read
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Old 02-27-2018, 02:21 PM
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I'm not talking about what vendors use NOW as a bitrate. That's but the bait!
Once its established, and the money made, they will cut the bitrate down so it looks
awful.

Its happened every time so far. It will again. Apple TV is already well below
first rate bitrate (average).



What does it look like at 5 megabits per second?
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Old 02-27-2018, 02:25 PM
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At 5mbps, the tv in use will dumb down the image.
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etype2 View Post
I answered your question. Did you look at the test results on my Calman ISF charts? I provided a link to see them. A smaller high light output panel will produce better results for HDR them my projector.

5mbps won’t cut it. I think what you are talking about is the bit rate of an average HD program. Netflix is streaming about 10 mbps. It varies during the program. It go’s up to 12 mbps. Direct TV is 30 mbps on 4K. These are the only two I’m familiar with. I’ll check on Apple TV. If your going to invest in 4K you want to make sure the chipset in the TV is capable of at least 13 mbps, 18 is better. You need an internet speed of at least 25 mbps. If your going to invest in 4K, why wouldn’t you want the best quality of 4K Blu-Ray? Some televisions display the metadata of the program watched. My Sony has this feature. Having said that, your eyes are the final test.


Update. I looked at the variable bit rates of Spider-Man Homecoming on both 4K Blu-Ray and Apple TV 4K. The Apple TV averages 13 mbps maxing out to 25 mbps and the 4K disc averaged 70 mbps maxing out at 100 mbps.
I work customer service for a communications company (OK, Frontier) and the rule of thumb I was taught that for 1080 resolution, the bitrate needs to be 19 Mbps, it might be doable with 17 Mbps but 19 is the rule. I only get 12 down on internet so when I watch anime, I select standard def usually. 4K, I'm not sure, I would venture to say at least double that if not more.
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Old 03-11-2018, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by NowhereMan 1966 View Post
I work customer service for a communications company (OK, Frontier) and the rule of thumb I was taught that for 1080 resolution, the bitrate needs to be 19 Mbps, it might be doable with 17 Mbps but 19 is the rule. I only get 12 down on internet so when I watch anime, I select standard def usually. 4K, I'm not sure, I would venture to say at least double that if not more.
On Netflix 4K, the streaming averages 12 mbps. On Direct TV, 4K satilite transmission is about 30 mbps, looks very good. Not sure about YouTube. I can say some excellent 4K content on You Tube but never checked the streaming quality. As mentioned before, UHD 4K Blu-Ray is the best.

Not sure where the other guy is coming from with 5mbps. It simply won’t cut it for 4K. He seems to suggest after spending all the money to create the formats including ATSC 3.0, all the providers will cut the service. You don’t have 4K video quality with 5 mbps.

A side note. NHK of Japan is about to roll out 8K and 8K sets are going on sale in Japan.
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Old 03-11-2018, 08:08 PM
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Where am I "coming from"?

I'm from Champaign IL in Concast land, at $200 per month ... but not for much longer.

I'm simply reporting the horrendous quality of our service. There are NO
channels I subscribe to ("140 channels") that are acceptable
quality. None at any resolution. Every channel except the lowest res
ones has pixelization on fast action. The so-called HD ones
appear to have maybe 1200 pixels resolution on sharp edges. On flat areas
like faces its much lower ... say 200 across the screen at 5, not 8 bits.
This is called "pasty faces". One can see MPEG wiggles around every
sharp line. On some talking head shows I see not 60 or 30 Hz refresh but rather 4 Hz for the background. You can see the horrendous low-bit
MPEG background squares change at that rate and no faster!

Our local over the air stations all have one so-called HD channel
and three SD ones. The HD shows all the same problems as Comcast,
just not as bad.

Edit: I just rechecked. Out local PBS station, WILL, is currently refreshing the middle background
MPEG squares (at most 4 colors per square, vertical or horizontal gradient only) at 1Hz.
They are constant for a whole second.

Last edited by dtvmcdonald; 03-11-2018 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 03-11-2018, 08:26 PM
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I have a 720p Insignia 19" flat screen TV, with Spectrum Choice TV streaming service. What, if anything, would I see on this TV when watching 4K video? If the answer is "nothing", what will I need to do to see anything on a TV like mine (install a cable box, adapter, etc.)? I don't want to use a cable box if I can avoid it (do not want the extra charge on my cable bill, and I do not want another box as I already have a Roku 2 Internet device with the Roku Spectrum TV app).

BTW, I think the cable companies are really trying their darndest to get as much money from subscribers as they can, through cable box rental fees. I wish I could drop cable, but my TV reception is not the best (I do not receive two network affiliates, CBS and FOX, with an antenna, although I get every other Cleveland local TV station just fine).

Sheeeeesh......... This is making me wonder if it is even worth it to have cable. I have YouTube TV, which delivers all my local stations except PBS and local Fox news, so if I dropped cable I would officially be a cord cutter. YT TV is actually a great service except for the lack of PBS, especially with its cloud DVR service; however, I do wonder why it does not carry PBS, which is a non-commercial network. Because it is a non-commercial network, cable companies would not (at least should not, IMHO) be charged exorbitant carriage fees as there are for any streaming or cable service which carries the major broadcast networks. I can get PBS by using a separate app, but it would be so much better if the network were included on Youtube TV. Does anyone here know if this is just an oversight on the part of YT TV, or is the service arbitrarily and deliberately omitting PBS goodness only knows why--or for no reason whatsoever?
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Old 03-11-2018, 08:50 PM
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[QUOTE=dtvmcdonald;3197145]Where am I "coming from"?

I'm from Champaign IL in Concast land, at $200 per month ... but not for much longer./QUOTE]

Just out of curiosity, where will you get your TV service if you drop Comcast? Are you in a part of Champaign, Illinois that gets half-decent or better reception of the area's local channels? If so, your decision to drop cable and become a "cord cutter" is a good idea, but if one or more local stations are "iffy" or just plain do not reach you with an antenna, then I would stay with Comcast. I would check to see if they have a lower-priced package than what you presently subscribe to; most cable operators do offer several different tiers of service, the lowest-priced of which will deliver local channels only. Another alternative would be YouTube TV, if such is available in your area; I think it is available in the Chicago area, but I'm not sure about central or southern Illinois. I live in northeastern Ohio and have Spectrum (formerly Time Warner Cable) streaming TV service, which delivers local channels plus up to ten additional ones (I have seven such channels to date on my service). I don't know if Spectrum is available in your area, but I'd look into it. If it is available in Chicago and environs it is probably also available elsewhere in your state.
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Old 03-11-2018, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtvmcdonald View Post
Where am I "coming from"?

I'm from Champaign IL in Concast land, at $200 per month ... but not for much longer.

I'm simply reporting the horrendous quality of our service. There are NO
channels I subscribe to ("140 channels") that are acceptable
quality. None at any resolution. Every channel except the lowest res
ones has pixelization on fast action. The so-called HD ones
appear to have maybe 1200 pixels resolution on sharp edges. On flat areas
like faces its much lower ... say 200 across the screen at 5, not 8 bits.
This is called "pasty faces". One can see MPEG wiggles around every
sharp line. On some talking head shows I see not 60 or 30 Hz refresh but rather 4 Hz for the background. You can see the horrendous low-bit
MPEG background squares change at that rate and no faster!

Our local over the air stations all have one so-called HD channel
and three SD ones. The HD shows all the same problems as Comcast,
just not as bad.

Edit: I just rechecked. Out local PBS station, WILL, is currently refreshing the middle background
MPEG squares (at most 4 colors per square, vertical or horizontal gradient only) at 1Hz.
They are constant for a whole second.
I’m originally from Milwaukee, then Lake Geneva about 200 miles North of you. As a television enthusiast, I remember cable and the inferior quality you are talking about. When it rained the video quality degraded with cable. This was in the 70’s and 80’s. The only choices were OTA, cable and later the 12 foot diameter satellite dishes. No HD, no 4K.

Then DirectTV came along in 1992. I quickly switched to DirectTV. Been with them for 25 years. My DirectTV bill went up to $179 a month. Just recently, I ordered their new 4K server with 4 clients. They dropped my bill by $92 for a year! That is why I’ve stayed with them all these years, they always worked with me. Over the 25 years, Direct TV technology evolved. I saw some of the artifacts you describe and now and again some channels had problems but they always seemed to get resolved, so again stuck with them.

We have Comcast in our area and I won’t touch it. I gather you are are talking about Comcast cable service or both including some streaming services?

I mentioned this before, it you want acceptable 4K service, you need at least 25 mbps Internet speed for streaming. If you are streaming, what is your internet speed?

This thread is about 4K UHD. No, I don’t think the providers will cut 4K service to 5mbps. Adoption of 4K for your home is not for casual viewing. If all you care about is a nice acceptable image, HD is fine. For 4K you need a large screen to appreciate the higher resolution. Your not going to see an improvement on a 55 inch panel. You need to think about lighting, invest in high speed internet and currently the best quality is UHD 4K Blu-Ray disks, so you will need a Blu-Ray player. Many folks want the best sound with their 4K video, so they invest in high quality multi channel sound systems. Some folks don’t like physical media. I come from an era when I adopted Betamax, VHS, CD, Laser Disk, and DVD. Physical media doesn’t bother me. In fact, being from the old school I looked down on streaming, now I embrace it.

I appreciate where your coming from with your cable service. 4K is a whole new ball game and if I live long enough I’m sure I will embrace 8K.
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Last edited by etype2; 03-12-2018 at 02:59 AM. Reason: Typos
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