Videokarma.org

Go Back   Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums > International Vintage Televisions

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-22-2014, 06:09 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hucknall, Nottingham, England.
Posts: 130
English NTSC TV's.

When Sony imported colour TV's into England in the early 70's they didn't have a PAL licence, to get round this they converted the PAL signal to NTSC. They did this by dropping the alternate phase line of PAL, stored the previous line with a delay line, repeated it & used an NTSC decoder, & it worked. My Mother had an 18 inches version of this set & it had an outstanding picture. The only difference between it & a standard PAL set was it had a hue control on the front, a standard PAL set didn't need a hue control as the hue never changed as the PAL system canceled out any hue errors. It was still working perfect when my Mother passed away in 1994, my sister had it after & I don't know what happened to it..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-22-2014, 07:10 AM
dr.ido's Avatar
dr.ido dr.ido is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SE Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 528
I've seen this on a CVM-1310E set here in Australia. I'm not sure where it was originally imported from. I don't think Sony were the only ones to use this approach - though I don't remember who else did it. I don't consider these sets to be NTSC, they're still PAL - just using a different (simpler/cheaper?) approach.

The "real" UK NTSC TVs would be the experimental 405 line NTSC sets that were tested before they decided to go with a 625 line PAL system.

The KV-1800AS was the first Sony to be officially sold here and has a proper PAL decoder. When we got a eventually got an official KV-13??AS model it also had a proper PAL decoder.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-22-2014, 08:59 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.ido View Post
I've seen this on a CVM-1310E set here in Australia. I'm not sure where it was originally imported from. I don't think Sony were the only ones to use this approach - though I don't remember who else did it. I don't consider these sets to be NTSC, they're still PAL - just using a different (simpler/cheaper?) approach.

The "real" UK NTSC TVs would be the experimental 405 line NTSC sets that were tested before they decided to go with a 625 line PAL system.

The KV-1800AS was the first Sony to be officially sold here and has a proper PAL decoder. When we got a eventually got an official KV-13??AS model it also had a proper PAL decoder.
It's really amazing that they can build Multi-standard color sets.
They seem to have been out for several years now. I have a few that can operate on NTSC-M&C, Secam and PAL.
I refer to my Samsung 15", as my Osama Ben-Laden set, as it looks just like his.
I bought on E-BAY and it was originally sold in Saudi-Arabia.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-22-2014, 09:30 AM
dr.ido's Avatar
dr.ido dr.ido is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SE Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 528
I think Sony were among the first with multi-standard with their KX-20PS1, KX-27PS1 and their various cube monitors. They all (at least in the versions sold/found here in Australia) supports PAL, NTSC and even SECAM. Of course these were high end models - multistandard didn't become a standard feature in lower end sets until much later. Even then Sony lead the way. I've got a basic low end Sony 14" set from around 1990 that does PAL/NTSC (probably not SECAM) when most similar sets from other manufacturers were still PAL only.

When PlayStation and DVD became a thing everyone here needed a multistandard TV. They may not know or care what PAL/NTSC are, but they noticed when their imported games/DVD movies didn't play in color. Official local releases are all PAL, but US imports are obviously NTSC as are almost all bootlegs and pirate copies (despite usually coming from parts of Asia that use PAL).
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-22-2014, 11:36 AM
Sandy G's Avatar
Sandy G Sandy G is offline
Spiteful Old Cuss
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Rogersville, Tennessee
Posts: 9,077
Hehehehe.. I remember reading about how PAL & SECAM were developed-Ostensibly, to be "Superior" to the crude & "Inferior" NTSC, but REALLY were developed as a "Thumb in the Nose" of the Americans, & ultimately RCA, whose heavy-handed sales tactics infuriated the Europeans.... But the Japanese were able to negate PAL & SECAM by "Back Engineering" them w/decoders. And, as we all know, even the mighty American home electronics industry couldn't stand up to the onslaught of Japan, Inc. Mene mene Tekel...
__________________
Benevolent Despot
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #6  
Old 07-22-2014, 08:01 PM
Electronic M's Avatar
Electronic M Electronic M is online now
M is for Memory
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pewaukee/Delafield Wi
Posts: 9,994
Well I learned something new about foreign TVs today...
__________________
Tom C.

What I want. --> http://www.videokarma.org/showpost.p...62&postcount=4

Reading between the scan lines since the mid 2000's.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-23-2014, 02:42 AM
dr.ido's Avatar
dr.ido dr.ido is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SE Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 528
I've heard SECAM described as System Essentially Contrary to American Method and NTSC described as Never Twice the Same Color. I assume there is one for PAL as well.

I'd also heard that many countries that chose SECAM over PAL did so in an effort to prevent their citizens viewing broadcasts from neighboring PAL countries.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-23-2014, 03:02 AM
ppppenguin's Avatar
ppppenguin ppppenguin is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 267
PAL was sometimes called "Peace At Last" in the UK.

NTSC is good system but with 1960s technology, let alone 1950s, it was very hard to maintain good colour accuracy through the broadcast chain. Ideas of using phase alternation were first tried at Hazeltine Labs in the late 1940s (I think I've got that right). Henri de France's SECAM and Bruch's PAL were both solutions to the colour accuracy problem.

SECAM is utterly different to NTSC except for the use of colour difference signals. It's also a horror story for anything byond simple cuts in the studio. Even a fade requires horrible processes that degrade the picture.

PAL used the idea of phase alternation to stop phase errors giving wrong colours. Line by line alternation depended on having a low cost 1 line delay line in the receiver. PAL receivers without one "Simple PAL" didn't give very good results and were never marketed. AFAIK.

There was no need for Sony to reverse engineer PAL. The PAL system was described in the Bruch/Telefunken patents. What Sony did was treat PAL as a sort of NTSC to navigate round the patents. Hence these Sony sets needed a hue control which true PAL sets did not. Commercially these sets were a great success and paved the way for Japanes dominance of the UK TV market. The likes of Sony and Toshiba made good reliable sets which the UK industry couldn't match until a few years later.
__________________
Jeffrey Borinsky www.borinsky.co.uk

Last edited by ppppenguin; 07-23-2014 at 03:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-23-2014, 04:24 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hucknall, Nottingham, England.
Posts: 130
I started a thread on 'UK Vintage Radio Repair & Restoration' site last year about this subject, it's called 'Sony PAL to NTSC converter'. It explains how Sony did it. It's burst back into life in the last couple of days..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-23-2014, 02:09 PM
old_tv_nut's Avatar
old_tv_nut old_tv_nut is offline
See yourself on Color TV!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rancho Sahuarita
Posts: 4,747
Some American manufacturers made a few "Simple PAL" receivers for the South American market, I believe.
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #11  
Old 07-23-2014, 06:51 PM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_tv_nut View Post
Some American manufacturers made a few "Simple PAL" receivers for the South American market, I believe.
It could've been Motorola. They built a Quasar set that was PAL compatible.
They discontinued it, when Matsushita bought their TV business.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-29-2014, 06:42 AM
ceebee23's Avatar
ceebee23 ceebee23 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 330
I posted this elsewhere but here is a interesting set on the oldtechnology site

http://www.oldtechnology.net/images/ekcoct100m.jpg

the details are found on this page http://www.oldtechnology.net/colour4.html
__________________
____________________________
........RGBRGBRGB ...colour my world
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-29-2014, 07:00 AM
ceebee23's Avatar
ceebee23 ceebee23 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 330
When Australia introduced colour in the 1970s (very late to the party).. we adopted PAL... with Telefunken owning the patents only Oz and European manufacturers were licenced to sell sets here...well that was the plan until GE announced they were happy to licence the Japanese companies.... thru their cross patents with Telefunken. The result that Sony etc were able to sell full PAL-D sets.

A number of other sets were directly imported by retailers. Hence the Sony 13" mentioned above... the only Sony set officially released here was the KV1800AS ... a full PAL-D set but multistandard sets were available as well with European PAL G tuners (which did not receive our odd channel 5A)
__________________
____________________________
........RGBRGBRGB ...colour my world
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-30-2014, 02:28 AM
NewVista's Avatar
NewVista NewVista is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Milw, WI
Posts: 671
So the sneaky Sony TV would store the 'NTSC' lines and repeat them in place if the sequential 'PAL' lines

A standard PAL-D TV would store the 'NTSC' line and process it with subsequent 'PAL' line. This would halve the chroma vertical resolution.

But it gets worse because of interlaced scanning: now sampled detail from two lines above is added to 'PAL' line
creating more degradation than unprocessed pure 'PAL' & 'NTSC' lines (as in a PAL-S receiver)?
And if there is picture motion even more blur.

Last edited by NewVista; 07-30-2014 at 02:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-31-2014, 07:08 AM
NewVista's Avatar
NewVista NewVista is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Milw, WI
Posts: 671
First PAL sets used visual averaging of complementary hue errors (if any) over odd & even line pairs with different line in between creating annoying "venetian blind" artifact. Disastrous idea given interlaced scanning.
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:47 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ęCopyright 2012 VideoKarma.org, All rights reserved.