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  #61  
Old 01-26-2015, 09:24 PM
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Carmine Carmine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandersen View Post
Here's a more thorough lead leaching test of monochrome and color CRTs

http://www.pca.state.mn.us/index.php....html?gid=4865

The second table seems to show that it's not the thick, heavy face that's the source of lead leaching out, it's the neck and especially the funnel.

Here's an excerpt from the conclusion:
We'll probably have to agree to disagree but here are a few issues I have with this report...

The report itself admits that the Toxicity Characteristic Leaching Procedure (TCLP) is not without controversy. I do not accept the premise that the process represents conditions found in the typical municipal landfill. The procedure breaks the CRT into a 9.5mm size that I find reasonable... But then these pieces are "rotated at 30 rpm for 18 ( 2 h in a 12 vessel rotary extractor. The extract was filtered through a glass fiber filter of 0.8-ím pore size and the sample preserved using 2 mL of nitric acid per 500 mL of sample."

Now you are breaking the glass nearly into its basic silica components. Remember, the 9.5mm size is just a maximum size... There are already many sand-like bits created by using a hammer to break down the crt, per the study's methodology. That 18 hour "rock tumbling" is not something I would expect to see occur in a landfill... At least not in a time frame where naturally-occurring lead might migrate through the same soil. Then they are using an acid to "digest" this mix into a sample that can be passed through flame spectrophotometer.

Quote:
The extracts were stored at 4 °C until digestion. EPA method 3010A (Acid Digestion of Aqueous Samples and Extracts for Total Metals for Analysis by FLAA or ICP Spectroscopy) was used to digest the samples
Sorry, but that process sounds more like what is done to determine material compounds (un-alloying, for lack of a better term), not the process I would expect to occur naturally in a landfill in even 1000 years.

I am not alone in finding fault with this methodology. Below I began selecting relevant text from a 1999 letter sent to the EPA critical of the text methodology, and I've left it if anyone wants to read it. But in summary it sounds like whoever conducted the study used a method that would basically separate the silica from the lead and give the expected result. Consider that there is money to be made (and government bureaucracies to be propped-up) in re-classifying CRTs as hazardous waste. Funny how water sits inside lead pipes in municipal water systems, yet there is no "push" to replace these systems. Maybe the lobby group and the money just haven't arrived yet for that cause, but does that make it more or less of a risk to health?


Quote:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...84349003,d.aWw

Waste Leachability: The Need for Review of Current
Agency Procedures... First, the TCLP is applied too broadly. Second, leach
tests, including the TCLP when used to characterize toxicity, can be improved by accounting for additional parameters. In 1990, EPA promulgated the TCLP as a method to characterize the toxicity potential of wastes using a particular worst-case scenario. In addition to its use as a waste classification test, the TCLP is being used by regulators and industry more broadly. The TCLP may be inappropriate in some of these broad applications...

...To be most scientifically supportable, a leaching protocol should be both accurate and reasonably related to conditions governing leachability under actual waste disposal conditions.

...Kinetics: The TCLP is based on an extraction time of 18 hours. This time frame was arbitrarily chosen and does not necessarily bear any relation to an equilibrium state.

...Liquid/Solid Ratio: The TCLP uses a 20:1 liquid to solid ratio. [Is this a realistic representation of what you would find in a municipal landfill? ]

...Particle Size Reduction: TCLP particle size reduction requirements may not
represent field conditions. The TCLP requires that solids must be reduced in size to pass a 9.5-mm sieve before the waste is mixed with the extraction fluid. This reduction in size increases the specific surface area of the particles, which increases the leaching potential. Monolithic wastes have a lower leaching potential due to physical stabilization and the resultant increase in the length of the diffusion pathway from waste into the leachate. Additionally, some processes also provide for chemical stabilization by binding heavy metals in insoluble hydroxide and other complexes.18 Consequently, reductions in leachability that derive from solidification/stabilization associated with monolithic wastes are ignored.

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Last edited by Carmine; 01-27-2015 at 05:59 AM.
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  #62  
Old 01-27-2015, 12:50 AM
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...

Last edited by andy; 11-20-2021 at 03:40 PM.
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  #63  
Old 01-27-2015, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
I would think the biggest source of lead in an old TV was in the solder. That would certainly corrode in a landfill.
It's also bizarre to me that this wasn't the chosen course for pursuing a haz-waste classification because you don't have to go through the mineral-extraction process used to classify CRT's.

Again, questioning motivations... It may have been that policing the actual scrappage of something as easily disposed of as a circuit board is hard to do. Imagine just having to show your TV's curcuit boards are gone, then you can throw the CRT/cabinet in a dumpster. That's seriously going to cut into the revenue of the haz waste disposers (probably located in NJ). A similar parallel might be requiring scrappers to present "freon removal certifications" for fridges and A/C units. Do you think these items ever arrive in a shape recognizable as an appliance? The fridges are just empty shells and the condenser/evaporator just get shoved in with the old bedspings and aluminum siding.
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  #64  
Old 01-27-2015, 03:37 PM
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Curious... where does lead come from? Where do we get it?
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  #65  
Old 01-27-2015, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
Curious... where does lead come from? Where do we get it?
It's Mined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead
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  #66  
Old 01-27-2015, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
Ahh! It's like SNL's Quarry brand serial.

"Tastes better, cause it's mined!"
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  #67  
Old 01-27-2015, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
So... it's already in the ground. And today, they are worried about put it BACK into the ground... where it came from to begin with!

What are they going to do about the lead that's already in mines?? They'll have to get that out, too, so they can dispose of it properly. And who will pay for that??

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  #68  
Old 01-27-2015, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
So... it's already in the ground. And today, they are worried about put it BACK into the ground... where it came from to begin with!

What are they going to do about the lead that's already in mines?? They'll have to get that out, too, so they can dispose of it properly. And who will pay for that??


The sad part is the eco commies are really that dumb...
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  #69  
Old 01-27-2015, 07:15 PM
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Uranium is also mined but I'm pretty sure if someone wanted to dump it in your water supply or backyard people would throw a fit.
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  #70  
Old 01-27-2015, 08:26 PM
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Carmine Carmine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
Uranium is also mined but I'm pretty sure if someone wanted to dump it in your water supply or backyard people would throw a fit.


Let's not stray from what's really being argued. Lead is a common element in just about all soil. Of all the things one might find in a landfill, lead encapsulated within a glass matrix (not ground into dust and digested with acid before measurement with a flame spectrophotometer) is probably one of the least worrisome materials you'll find.

Classifying CRTs as haz waste is a great money-maker for certain people. With the right test, you can separate the elements and justify the classification. We're all afraid of lead because we've seem the stories of kids eating a diet of lead paint chips... Thousands of times the expose one would receive from a lead pipe... Still quite common in municipal water systems. The hype is so intence, stores are afraid to sell used dishwasher because the might have an old copper/lead sweated fitting attached. Your odds of being beheaded are probably higher than health risks from used dishwashers, but which issue has already been addressed? Lobby groups, err I mean Governments, have their priorities!
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Last edited by Carmine; 01-27-2015 at 09:20 PM.
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  #71  
Old 01-28-2015, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
Uranium is also mined but I'm pretty sure if someone wanted to dump it in your water supply or backyard people would throw a fit.
Yeah, people get kind of attached to their hair, women especially.
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  #72  
Old 01-29-2015, 05:59 AM
Dude111 Dude111 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon A.
That's pretty much my way of thinking. We don't need a bunch of modern-day hippies telling us what to do.
Exactly Jon... Its good to have a strong mind and not let others fill it with crap!!
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  #73  
Old 01-31-2015, 09:42 PM
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F o l l o w t h e m o n e y . . . . .
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