Videokarma.org

Go Back   Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums > Things with Motors

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 05-06-2018, 01:57 AM
MadMan's Avatar
MadMan MadMan is offline
'A Disgusting Brony'
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseljeep View Post
With an interference engine, isn't there more damage to the engine than the just the head and valves? Possible damage to the piston faces or block.
In my experience, VERY rarely. Most typically, two or so cylinder's valves just get bent aside (effectively making them stuck open), and maybe put a tiny ding on the top of the corresponding pistons. I think I may have seen one engine that had a hole poked in the piston, out of the countless broken timing belts I've seen. Long story short, if it's a fight between a piston and a valve, the piston wins.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 05-07-2018, 11:00 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMan View Post
In my experience, VERY rarely. Most typically, two or so cylinder's valves just get bent aside (effectively making them stuck open), and maybe put a tiny ding on the top of the corresponding pistons. I think I may have seen one engine that had a hole poked in the piston, out of the countless broken timing belts I've seen. Long story short, if it's a fight between a piston and a valve, the piston wins.
I saw the former Kia owner Sunday, but forgot to ask him if he pulled the head to see how much damage was done to the original engine.
He pretty well knows his way around cars, but this winter seemed so long and cold, so who could blame him.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 05-07-2018, 12:30 PM
maxhifi's Avatar
maxhifi maxhifi is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMan View Post
In my experience, VERY rarely. Most typically, two or so cylinder's valves just get bent aside (effectively making them stuck open), and maybe put a tiny ding on the top of the corresponding pistons. I think I may have seen one engine that had a hole poked in the piston, out of the countless broken timing belts I've seen. Long story short, if it's a fight between a piston and a valve, the piston wins.
Hmm, I've seen cars written off (by their owners) for this, when there was plenty of value left in the rest of the car. Maybe a good way to get a cheap car, if there's a little luck involved!

I guess it's becoming less relevant, with the industry moving away from timing belts. The main problem is how darn annoying front wheel drive cars are to work on.. I had the timing belt off in my RWD pickup in a few hours.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 05-08-2018, 02:40 AM
MadMan's Avatar
MadMan MadMan is offline
'A Disgusting Brony'
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxhifi View Post
Hmm, I've seen cars written off (by their owners) for this, when there was plenty of value left in the rest of the car. Maybe a good way to get a cheap car, if there's a little luck involved!
You might get lucky sometimes. I've been the own who's written off a lot of those cars. It's still a big expensive job, the head being at the machinist's is about $400 by itself, then all the R&R at a decent shop is another $600-$1000. So yeah, depends on the car's value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxhifi View Post
I guess it's becoming less relevant, with the industry moving away from timing belts. The main problem is how darn annoying front wheel drive cars are to work on.. I had the timing belt off in my RWD pickup in a few hours.
Oh yes... much less relevant. Now more cars are using timing chains... riding on plastic guides that become brittle in the heat and oil of an engine by 100k miles and break and destroy the valves just like a broken timing belt. I've already dealt with several of those. In general, they're much more labor intensive. You're honestly better off with a rubber belt. You'll have to do the maintenance either way, and a belt is typically easier. I suppose the one advantage a chain design has is the absence of camshaft oil seals.

On occasion I've been able to do a chain job preventatively. It's hard to catch though, because it's not as easy as just peeking behind a plastic cover to look at the condition of a belt. :/ It's also not a 'recommended' maintenance, nor is it something the ordinary motorist (or indeed, mechanic) would even consider to be a maintenance item.

Last edited by MadMan; 05-08-2018 at 02:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 05-08-2018, 02:02 PM
mr_rye89's Avatar
mr_rye89 mr_rye89 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMan View Post
Oh yes... much less relevant. Now more cars are using timing chains... riding on plastic guides that become brittle in the heat and oil of an engine by 100k miles and break and destroy the valves just like a broken timing belt. I've already dealt with several of those. In general, they're much more labor intensive. You're honestly better off with a rubber belt. You'll have to do the maintenance either way, and a belt is typically easier. I suppose the one advantage a chain design has is the absence of camshaft oil seals.

On occasion I've been able to do a chain job preventatively. It's hard to catch though, because it's not as easy as just peeking behind a plastic cover to look at the condition of a belt. :/ It's also not a 'recommended' maintenance, nor is it something the ordinary motorist (or indeed, mechanic) would even consider to be a maintenance item.


Thats my "case" for timing belts, at least for OHC applications. as for front wheel drive, that's why I'm in a Miata right now. the timing belt shouldn't be too hard on that one, it was replaced at 80k, and isn't due until 160K.......unless the water pump craps out.
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #126  
Old 05-09-2018, 01:11 AM
MadMan's Avatar
MadMan MadMan is offline
'A Disgusting Brony'
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_rye89 View Post
the timing belt shouldn't be too hard on that one, it was replaced at 80k, and isn't due until 160K.......unless the water pump craps out.
Oh it shouldn't be too bad. But I would do it at 140k or earlier. In fact, most manufacturers recommend a shorter interval after the first belt. It's typical for it to say at 120k then every 60k afterwards, for example.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 05-09-2018, 02:40 AM
mgross0 mgross0 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 58
Mopar typically recommends a timing belt change every 90k or ten years. The average 3.5L will need five timing belt changes during it's lifetime, if you take care of it. Of course I should also mention that it may need seven tranny changes, depending on the model year. UltraDrive could be a real stinker, especially if you used the wrong fluid.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 05-09-2018, 10:21 PM
dishdude's Avatar
dishdude dishdude is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgross0 View Post
Mopar typically recommends a timing belt change every 90k or ten years. The average 3.5L will need five timing belt changes during it's lifetime, if you take care of it. Of course I should also mention that it may need seven tranny changes, depending on the model year. UltraDrive could be a real stinker, especially if you used the wrong fluid.
I suspect a lot of people were sold transmissions that only needed a sensor or solenoid pack too.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 05-10-2018, 01:34 AM
MadMan's Avatar
MadMan MadMan is offline
'A Disgusting Brony'
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 638
Yeah, the Ultradrive aka A604 is actually a really solid little transmission. They don't even make Dexron 2 anymore, so you'd have to be a special level of incompetent to screw it up these days. And sure they have their problems, but so does literally everything else.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 05-10-2018, 10:09 AM
maxhifi's Avatar
maxhifi maxhifi is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_rye89 View Post


Thats my "case" for timing belts, at least for OHC applications. as for front wheel drive, that's why I'm in a Miata right now. the timing belt shouldn't be too hard on that one, it was replaced at 80k, and isn't due until 160K.......unless the water pump craps out.
The Miata is a non-interferance engine, so if the belt does break, it won't be a total disaster.
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #131  
Old 05-10-2018, 10:15 AM
maxhifi's Avatar
maxhifi maxhifi is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMan View Post
You might get lucky sometimes. I've been the own who's written off a lot of those cars. It's still a big expensive job, the head being at the machinist's is about $400 by itself, then all the R&R at a decent shop is another $600-$1000. So yeah, depends on the car's value.

Oh yes... much less relevant. Now more cars are using timing chains... riding on plastic guides that become brittle in the heat and oil of an engine by 100k miles and break and destroy the valves just like a broken timing belt. I've already dealt with several of those. In general, they're much more labor intensive. You're honestly better off with a rubber belt. You'll have to do the maintenance either way, and a belt is typically easier. I suppose the one advantage a chain design has is the absence of camshaft oil seals.

On occasion I've been able to do a chain job preventatively. It's hard to catch though, because it's not as easy as just peeking behind a plastic cover to look at the condition of a belt. :/ It's also not a 'recommended' maintenance, nor is it something the ordinary motorist (or indeed, mechanic) would even consider to be a maintenance item.

Any brands/engines specifically prone to failure? I've seen plenty last a lot longer than 100k, miles, but if that failure prone it sounds like gambling.

Sounds like a reasonable case for pushrods, that style of engine lasted great, no fancy cam drive system..
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 05-10-2018, 01:16 PM
DavGoodlin's Avatar
DavGoodlin DavGoodlin is offline
Motorola Minion
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: near Strasburg PA
Posts: 2,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxhifi View Post
Any brands/engines specifically prone to failure? I've seen plenty last a lot longer than 100k, miles, but if that failure prone it sounds like gambling.

Sounds like a reasonable case for pushrods, that style of engine lasted great, no fancy cam drive system..
St

Has anyone mentioned the original timing chain fail when General Motors used nylon timing gears on their very-interfering small-block V8. Not to be outdone, they used the softened camshafts later in the 70's that rounded lobes by 60K miles.
__________________
"When resistors increase in value, they're worthless"
-Dave G
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 05-11-2018, 12:43 AM
MadMan's Avatar
MadMan MadMan is offline
'A Disgusting Brony'
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxhifi View Post
Any brands/engines specifically prone to failure? I've seen plenty last a lot longer than 100k, miles, but if that failure prone it sounds like gambling.
Most are still a bit new for me to start pointing fingers. Of some of the older ones that I've personally seen... VW's 2.8 VR6 (doing one atm), Ford's 4.0 v6 (Explorers, mostly the older ones [enormous pain in the ass to do]), MINI's 1.8(?) (was able to catch that one early), GM's Ecotec 4 banger (saw one go at 60k, another at 100k [strangely I've only seen it in 2010+, design change, maybe?])... and that's all that's coming to mind atm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavGoodlin View Post
Has anyone mentioned the original timing chain fail when General Motors used nylon timing gears on their very-interfering small-block V8. Not to be outdone, they used the softened camshafts later in the 70's that rounded lobes by 60K miles.
NICE!
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 05-11-2018, 10:33 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMan View Post
Most are still a bit new for me to start pointing fingers. Of some of the older ones that I've personally seen... VW's 2.8 VR6 (doing one atm), Ford's 4.0 v6 (Explorers, mostly the older ones [enormous pain in the ass to do]), MINI's 1.8(?) (was able to catch that one early), GM's Ecotec 4 banger (saw one go at 60k, another at 100k [strangely I've only seen it in 2010+, design change, maybe?])... and that's all that's coming to mind atm.



NICE!
I had a 2001 Ford Explorer that had the 4.0 V6. When it was started from cold, the engine would rumble until the oil pressure came up, but only for a few seconds. It seemed to run alright, but I traded it at 120K when it need front end work and tires. I thought if I did the rest of the work and the engine failed, it was a big expense.
I traded it on my 2005 diesel Jeep Liberty which was totaled in Dec. 2009 in a freak accident.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 05-11-2018, 10:43 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavGoodlin View Post
St

Has anyone mentioned the original timing chain fail when General Motors used nylon timing gears on their very-interfering small-block V8. Not to be outdone, they used the softened camshafts later in the 70's that rounded lobes by 60K miles.
I heard of a couple of owners that had major problems with their Garbage Motors engines with low miles on them and well cared for.
What did they do! Bought another GM product! Gluttons for Punishment!
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ęCopyright 2012 VideoKarma.org, All rights reserved.