Videokarma.org

Go Back   Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums > Recorded Video

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03-24-2017, 07:24 AM
Chip Chester Chip Chester is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 759
...still rewinding. Slow.


Chip
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-24-2017, 08:50 AM
Telecolor 3007's Avatar
Telecolor 3007 Telecolor 3007 is offline
I love old stuff
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 2,079
Slow. It isn't so slow...
__________________
OLD, but ORIGINAL, not Made in CHINA.
Sailor Moon
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-24-2017, 02:27 PM
Telecolor 3007's Avatar
Telecolor 3007 Telecolor 3007 is offline
I love old stuff
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 2,079
Found an RM-440. But I ain't going to buy it soon, 'cause I don't need it. It's in neibeghourighn Hungary. About 35 bucks without transporation.
__________________
OLD, but ORIGINAL, not Made in CHINA.
Sailor Moon
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-26-2017, 08:18 AM
Telecolor 3007's Avatar
Telecolor 3007 Telecolor 3007 is offline
I love old stuff
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 2,079
Dave A , I've sent you a p.m.
__________________
OLD, but ORIGINAL, not Made in CHINA.
Sailor Moon
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-28-2017, 11:03 AM
Telecolor 3007's Avatar
Telecolor 3007 Telecolor 3007 is offline
I love old stuff
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 2,079
For what at an "Sony" VO-5850 is using the Edit button. And the Assamble one?
__________________
OLD, but ORIGINAL, not Made in CHINA.
Sailor Moon
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #36  
Old 03-28-2017, 12:34 PM
old_tv_nut's Avatar
old_tv_nut old_tv_nut is offline
See yourself on Color TV!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rancho Sahuarita
Posts: 7,184
Maybe someone who is familiar with this particular machine can supply details (such as how to establish cue points, etc.), but the general meaning is

Insert Edit: overwrites some existing part of a recording.
Assemble edit: adds more material on the end of recorded material
__________________
www.bretl.com
Old TV literature, New York World's Fair, and other miscellany
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-28-2017, 01:49 PM
Telecolor 3007's Avatar
Telecolor 3007 Telecolor 3007 is offline
I love old stuff
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 2,079
Adds more material without seeing the cuting?
__________________
OLD, but ORIGINAL, not Made in CHINA.
Sailor Moon
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-28-2017, 02:45 PM
old_tv_nut's Avatar
old_tv_nut old_tv_nut is offline
See yourself on Color TV!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rancho Sahuarita
Posts: 7,184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telecolor 3007 View Post
Adds more material without seeing the cuting?
If you mean adds material cleanly, like a scene change, yes. These edit modes require the capability to write a diagonal track on the tape with the rotating head, without using a stationary erase head that wipes the whole width of the tape.
__________________
www.bretl.com
Old TV literature, New York World's Fair, and other miscellany
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-28-2017, 02:55 PM
Chip Chester Chip Chester is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 759
Assemble vs. Insert editing boils down to control track.

When you edit machine-to-machine in a linear edit fashion, step one is to black your master tape. This means recording black video and timecode for the duration of the edit. Then, all your audio and video edits are known as insert edits, where the content is recorded in sync with, and over, existing audio and video -- but control track is not recorded over. (You generally leave timecode alone, as that tells you where you are, and is the reference for your Edit Decision List.) Insert edits allow you to record audio without disturbing video, and vise versa, or both at once. Or skip over some blacked tape to leave room for commercials to pay the bills. A handy thing.

Assemble editing can begin with an unblacked tape, straight out of the box. It's basically the same as a 'hard record', where video, audio, timecode, and control track are all laid down simultaneously. The thing that makes assemble special is that it syncs to, and continues (hopefully seamlessly) the control and (usually) timecode tracks. So if all you're doing is fade up from black, then cut, cut, cut with audio and video cutting simultaneously, then assemble is good. Think simple cutting together of a news story. If you go back and replace some audio with an assemble edit, you're replacing video as well -- whether or not you planned to do so.

The occasional danger of assemble editing is that, if things don't sync up correctly on pre-roll, you can be hosed. There would be a visible glitch in your video, and the only way to get rid of it is to back up into previously edited program material and re-edit. This can mean just a bit, or quite a bit of work.

In either case, the edit controller (either separate box or within the record machine) causes both tape machines to slew to the correct timecode offset, and then releases control to (usually) a house reference signal, which gives timing marching orders to all machines involved so they're spitting out frames exactly together, usually facility-wide. The benefit of that is that you can cut between sources at any frame boundary, and things will be glitch-free. (Except for that pesky color framing thing, which I'm not going into...)

There, now you're an editor.

Chip
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-28-2017, 04:37 PM
Telecolor 3007's Avatar
Telecolor 3007 Telecolor 3007 is offline
I love old stuff
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 2,079
I will try. My machine have T.B.C. incorporated.
But can I use an non-Umatic source, like a LaserDisc player or a D.V.D. player?
I've recorded 2-3 minutes from D.V.D. With a good signal source, U-Matic knocks out a lot of V.H.S. V.C.R.'s.
__________________
OLD, but ORIGINAL, not Made in CHINA.
Sailor Moon
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #41  
Old 03-28-2017, 05:56 PM
Dave A's Avatar
Dave A Dave A is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,529
I'm hoping you have an outboard TBC. It does not have one built in. The description by Chip is spot on for editing usually with a RM-440 in between two decks. The 5850 does not have the capability by itself to do frame accurate editing. You can only do "flying" edits on the buttons on the panel. No in points, no out points for a specific edit. Hit the video/audio/assemble buttons when you want. I think you have to hit them again to exit the edit. Its been a long time since I had to do that.

And the 5850 will take any 1v composite video signal from a like source. NTSC, PAL.

Chip, can you explain the need for advance vertical sync from a TBC? I forget and I think his TBC is only a proc amp at this point. I don't think the 5850 takes advance vertical. And that is if I got the name right. Corrections welcome.
__________________
“Once you eliminate the impossible...whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Sherlock Holmes.

Last edited by Dave A; 03-28-2017 at 05:56 PM. Reason: text
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-28-2017, 07:22 PM
Chip Chester Chip Chester is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 759
Umm, nope, I can't.
Always used pre-engineered video systems, and never had to dive into that stuff. Mainly an audio editor with pre-ProTools timecode-based systems, which I also engineered. Didn't hit video until it started transitioning from 1" to D2, then HD and beyond.

Advance sync might have to do with TBC processing delay, which I believe varied based on how many video lines of memory the TBC had... back in the days of less-than-full-frame TBCs.

I'm sure it Googleable/Wikiable, chapter and verse. That would be your best bet, or others here.

Chip
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-28-2017, 07:36 PM
Dave A's Avatar
Dave A Dave A is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,529
Chip/Telecolor...I have gone to the interweb to find my advance vertical question and I was rewarded with a photography forum and my thanks to them.

"All of the 3/4" decks that were designed for linear editing would
have sync inputs. IIRC the advanced sync is an output from the
timebase corrector you will be feeding the deck into. This output
is created by the timebase corrector and will be in sync with
"house sync" except that it will be a few lines early. That way the
TBC will have time to buffer the video and get it to the switcher
at the right time. Without advance sync, the TBC will have to buffer
the whole frame and put it out a frame late. This is assuming that
the deck is being fed sync at all. If the deck is free wheeling (no
sync input), then the TBC will wind up doubling up frames, or
dropping frames as needed to keep the output in sync.

Prosumer switchers work this way all of the time because there
is no sync between the deck and the switcher, so the decks are
always free wheeling. The TBCs in these units are actually frame
synchronizers. In fact most modern TBCs are frame synchronizers.
That means that they have a buffer that can hold an entire frame
and release the video in sync with the "house sync" no matter
what the source is doing. Frame synchs usually have the capability
of doing a freeze frame too. Early TBCs did not have this capability.

Advanced sync was essential on early TBCs because the buffers
were very small. 16 lines was fairly common. The output of a tape
deck will not be completely stable on it's own. Even if they are locked
to an external sync, there will be errors involving minor fluctuations
in speed. A TBC, even with a small buffer can take out these minor
imperfections in speed as long as they are within the bounds of
what the TBC can handle. If the errors exceed the buffer, then the
image will completely fall apart."

Remember that all of this is to get the deck to play on-the-air in an acceptable standard for air in sync with all the other house sources like cameras in the studio. Machine to machine never for air is different. The biggest killer in any helical scan system is tape speed and its corrections after. After all of the above, if the deck cannot accept advance then the output to the TBC is just a video signal going to a TBC that is only a proc amp or frame synchronizer without timing/speed corrections.

Analog forever, Dave A
__________________
“Once you eliminate the impossible...whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Sherlock Holmes.

Last edited by Dave A; 03-28-2017 at 07:55 PM. Reason: text
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03-29-2017, 03:12 AM
Telecolor 3007's Avatar
Telecolor 3007 Telecolor 3007 is offline
I love old stuff
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 2,079
Sorry, I've read it twice, but I dind't understood: that TBC switcher is turned on when I will connect to the V.C.R. an T.B.C. commander like the "Sony" 440.
__________________
OLD, but ORIGINAL, not Made in CHINA.
Sailor Moon
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03-29-2017, 07:02 AM
Chip Chester Chip Chester is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 759
The TBC is a timebase corrector, although it does switch video internally, it's not a multi-input production switcher. Look at it as an extension of your deck, that corrects dropouts (sometimes) and helps get frames marching around the facility in sync with other equipment. You'll want it in-line almost always, even when viewing or dubbing, as it makes things look better and gives you signal adjustment as well.

So "TBC switcher" and "TBC commander" might need a different term to describe it.

A Sony RM440 is a video edit controller. It controls tape machines in relation to each other, allowing more convenient transport control and edit point entry than doing it on the tape machine's front panel -- if the machine will even support front-panel controlled editing. (5850, only manually "punch and pray". BVU-series, yes.) The RM440 doesn't have any video inputs or outputs -- that's all at the deck. (It has a reference signal input that comes in on a video connector.)

Chip
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:57 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©Copyright 2012 VideoKarma.org, All rights reserved.