Can you fix a meter movement?

[Tubejunke]

I recently posted of needing a meter movement for a VTVM I got that has one open across the two terminals. Now I am wondering if repair is a viable option. I know that locally we at least once had a place that repaired automotive gauges, many of which would be similar movements. I imagine that would be more than the meter is worth to have done.

The meter has freedom of movement, so it (being open) is a purely electrical issue. The parts are tiny and delicate; that's for sure! If anyone has ever tried this, please chime in and advise.

Much thanks!

[jr_tech]

Good luck! What do you have too loose, anyway? After doing a couple of larger meters, I failed trying to rewind a Triplett 310 movement, but those are very tiny. Some helpful items :

1 Tiny soldering iron
2 Good magnifier (I used a stereo microscope)
3 Micrometer to measure wire size
4 Jewelers screwdrivers/nut drivers, sharp tweezers
5 Steady hand/patience/skill of a brain surgeon

Good luck!

jr

[Tubejunke]

Thanks jr! Too bad I am missing most of those tools and, well; #5 is iffy. LOL! I was hoping that there may be some other place inside that some meters can go open and be repaired without coils and such having to be rewound. I guess it is possible, but not likely. Maybe a replacement will show up. I'll have to look up the specs on at least 3 models that I know of that have the same movement in size and configuration; probably just different scales which wouldn't be hard to swap. That would be nice. Still finding a huge Hickok meter at all is going to be a challenge short of buying another whole unit on Ebay and risking the same situation. Heck, there aren't but one or two of these on all of Ebay! Either way, I don't really want to buy yet another space invader that I probably wouldn't want to part out.

[Tubejunke]

Just to finalize this thread I thought I would add that what I was working on was an old Hickok 209 with the legendary HUGE meter. I bought it on Ebay and the movement was open. I found that I could circumvent the small coil that had gone open and make the needle move via voltage applied through the diode selection of my DVOM. That gave me false hope that perhaps I could again circumvent the coil and replace it with a resistor. No good.

Now, if you had replacement parts, patience and eyes like the Six Million Dollar Man (that's an old TV show for the younger members) then you CAN indeed fix a meter movement. The next logical question would be WHY? Why take the time when they make perfectly good digital meters that sell for $20 or so. Well, it was a labor of love like fixing a 60 year old radio or TV. You just do it and may not have a real reason other than you like it. I like old over-engineered Hickok test equipment as I like the same in DuMont television.

It's just mind blowing the craftsmanship and sheer electronic knowledge knowledge that went into a lot of the old stuff. I knew that if I could come up with a movement that I would have a wonderful piece of test equipment. I learned that unless I could come up with a meter movement assembly from 1949 on some other occasion that I would be forced to part it out. It's not something that I would pursue again to the level of repair that I attempted.

[WoodchuckTN]

Tubejunkie, you can sometimes fix these - especially these very large movements that you and I really like ( I have 3 209A's, a 209, an EICO 249 - so far).

I'm curious what "little coil" you're referring to - the actual moving coil?

I have seen movements that measure open from the outside turn out to have either contact corrosion inside or the delicate lead from the terminal lug on the case to the spider that feeds the coil broken.

As earlier posts indicated, it's not for the faint of heart or the shaky of hand, but when there's not much to lose it's pretty rewarding get rehab one of these old beauties.

My 209 is near the front of the queue to be checked out. I may find out I have a similar issue. On these old VTVM's I always check the power transformer and meter movement before proceeding to make sure further efforts are justified. I'll let you know if I discover any other useful information.

Like you, I really like the Hickok equipment and have kind of specialized in it as I have accumulated vintage test equipment. (288X x2, 435 in addition to the above-mentioned VTVM's).

[Findm-Keepm]

That little coil may just be a precision wirewound resistor - easy to work around, with the range of precision metal film resistors to choose from. Some Phaosotron meters used a bobbin resistor that would open - they used those in a lot of DoD test equipment in the 1960s.

All the resistor does is act as a voltage dropper, so replacement types aren't critical.

[Tubejunke]

That's what it reminded me of: a sewing bobbin! And I actually have a bunch of NOS components which I have never identified from I would say the 30s-50s. LOTS of old resistors that look like barbells that are all different colors with values marked on the body. I have some of these "bobbin" type and I didn't know if they were a resistor or some weird coil or even a capacitor. Thanks Findem!

So Woodchuck is my new Hickok friend. Hello Woodchuck! Are you the guy that STOLE the black face 209A recently on Ebay. I hope you are, but it made me SO jealous. I have a 209 and a 209A. Both work now, but they are silver faced. I can't find a lot of info on these and I would like to know the deal on the black face model. I don't know if it is really worth any more than the others. I just like the way it looks and one went for BEANS on Epray I guess a month or so ago. I mean in the $20-30 range when any of them are usually $70-$100. I have only been an online auction victim for about a year and the prices are certainly rising I think.

I also have a nice 203 and most recently purchased a Hickok 440 which is a non VT DC volt, millivolt, milliampere meter. Neat little thing in a nice wooden box. Also there is a 6000A tube tester and another late 40s tube tester (I think 533) which I have forgotten the model. It's the first of what became their signature line of testers during the 40s-50s. Similar models as mine are the ones that you see for a grand or so on praybay. But of course mine is the lowly less valuable unit without the MANY bells and whistles that Hickok was so great at concocting.

I would love to have one of the way out there units like the 539A, but I don't make that kind of money and that caliber of tube testing will never help me enough to justify it. But Woodchuck as Hickok men we gotta admit that it REALLY IS about overkill right? LOL! Yeah, that "bobbin" was opened up, which is why the meter would not function unless I applied current after it which I believe was to one of the large steel poles that the pointer coil moves in.

The biggest pain that I found in my final repair by replacing the movement was that the assembly that I found had been water logged and the back/scale showed it bad. I had to transfer a nice scale and chrome trim (nicer) to the beat up meter. I learned in my initial repair attempt that keeping the small needle stops in place was almost impossible. There is also alignment to think of or the whole thing is botched.

What I did was when taking apart the beat up unit I devised a tool to apply just enough super glue to hold the stops in place while the scale was being transferred. It worked, but almost became a disaster. You don't want to super glue the old scale, the stops & the movement together so you have to be really careful with the application of the glue. I think I got lucky honestly! Then, if the glue gets down in the fine threaded tap hole it starts drying as you tighten which becomes as if it were cross threaded in force required. I did it though. I don't plan on doing it again though.

Hey, if you ever come up with nice chrome meter surrounds, I could use a couple. Mine are average from what I have seen and for the age, but it would be nice to have nice chrome. That black beauty I mentioned had SLICK chrome. It must have been kept really well in a shop its whole existence! Ok man glad to meet ya! We will have to stay in touch and maybe start a Hickok or BIG meter thread!!

[WoodchuckTN]

Yes, I confess, I got that black 209A and for a price that really surprised me. I had been lusting after one for about as long as I've been back into electronics - almost a year.

A white 209A was my first equipment purchase on eBay last January and was a disaster. The range switch had two broken wafers and somebody before me had really messed up several things inside. I was able to find a replacement switch from a fellow on ARF and was able to repair the meter movement (the balance weights had fallen off), but am still trying to decide whether to fix it or part it out.

I've since acquired another white one and have it working and calibrated.

The black one had already been recapped and only needed a couple resistors changed out in the AC balance area to complete the calibration. I don't know if you remember, but it had the hard-to-find AC probe with it - and it worked! Needless to say I was a happy old man.

I'm glad to hear you got your 209 working.

Those meter escutcheons are often an issue it seems. My black one is good, but the white one has been painted black at some point and part of the paint is peeling. I need to swap it out with the one from my original purchase or find another. I'll let you know if I come across an extra.

I also would like to know the background of the black vs. white for the 209A. I have never come across any info on that issue.

Knowing that brand preferences can be somewhat subjective, it's still good to find a fellow Hickok junkie. I'll be in touch.

[Username1]

You can fix a meter movement. It depends on where the break is. I had one where the
break was at the coiled return spring, those springs carry the current. I had one where
the wire to the spring broke, I could see it, so I resoldered it. I made a itty bitty soldering
iron by taking my 30W soldering pencil, and attaching a regular piece of wire to it
and using the end of the wire left sticking off the end of the pencil to solder with.
Yah you will need to be plenty lucky, have a good magnifying glass & light.

After wrapping wire around the pencil, flow solder onto it to help with heat transfer.

If it's bad in the wrapped part, with the movement pointer, you may not be able to
fix it... You would have to take a lot more stuff apart.... More of that surgical skill....

Good Luck...

.

[Tubejunke]

Hey Chuck, does your A/C probe work the same in your 209A and the plain 209? I started my Hickok adventures with my 209A that was given to me. It came with both the A/C probe which has a 6AL5 tube inside and the DC probe. I'm glad I have the one example of the probe myself because as you said they are hard to find.

Anyway, when I plug the probe into my plain 209 it is a dead short. So I am cheating by asking you this question. If you don't know then we (I) need to look at both schematics and see if there is a difference. I said I am cheating because honestly I haven't done much of anything to investigate myself and if you already know they are different it would save me the time of investigation. If the same then I have a problem with my socket.

And man what a small world it really is for me to ask willy nilly about the black face on Ebay and it turns out to be you. You have got to be the luckiest bidder alive man! And I can't for the life of me figure out how that one got under the radar that seems to be out there for such things. There have been two of them in the past number of months. This I speak of is the last of the two and was flawless in outward appearance. Actually, I've never seen one in better shape! And then with the probe as well. I forgot about that being there. None have that hardly! The last junker I got that caused the meter need and this thread actually had the pin jacks with it. Of course they were falling apart.

If you need a set of those you can snap the ends off of a spare set of meter leads and solder on Loctal tube pins. You can still buy them new I believe, but I forget where. Likely Simpson has them.

[WoodchuckTN]

The probes are not interchangeable. The tubes in the probes are different and the wiring is totally different. You're lucky if you didn't fry something. Luckily tube circuits are generally more forgiving than SS.

Re the black beauty, the probe being there was my excuse for bidding since I hadn't been able to find one after many months of searching. I was very surprised to win it. That's the way eBay works though - as with any auction - it's all in who's out there at a given time.

[Tubejunke]

Ok, you saved me a lot of time; thanks. Sort of strange though I think that they made of all things the probes non-interchangable. So it sounds like we both have 209As with the probe and neither of us have the 209 probe. Wow! And there's not a lot of material out there on the Web about these.

I did stumble across a topic forum somewhere about this very subject only it was about making your own probe. I forget what model it was about, but it was one of them or both. Honestly though there is little chance of me worrying about it unless I luck out and just happen along one to make the unit complete. If I want to do a good AC measurement I may as well break out the DVM or amp clamp. Most needs of a bench VTVM will be DC anyway.

Lets keep one another in mind. Perhaps one or the other will discover someone with more than one. Same with escutcheons.

[WoodchuckTN]

The thread you saw was possibly on ARF. I know there have been at least a couple on there in the "Test Equipment and Tools" sub-forum. After reading these I had even begun collecting needed parts like the smallest 7-pin sockets I could find and a 6AL5 and several different probe-body possibilities. Since I've picked up the "Black Beauty" with the probe, my motivation to build a probe has greatly diminished.

I'm not sure I'm even going to keep the 209, as I'm pretty overrun with VTVM's and am beginning to run out of room. I may just rehab it and sell or trade it.

I'll definitely stay in touch.

[Tubejunke]

Hey Woodchuck. are you going to bid on the NEW IN BOX 209A on Praybay?!?!? LOL! It sure is a beauty, but I don't know if I can justify the starting amount or the space taken by yet another meter.

It makes me wish that I didn't have what I do. It is one heck of a beauty!!

[WoodchuckTN]

Yes, I saw that and would probably be tempted if I didn't already have four of those big-faced beauties.

Another thing that keeps me from it is that I'm trying not to collect in the usual sense, but I want what I call "users". By that I mean I don't want it just to look at, but want to restore it to a useable state. If I bought that one, I wouldn't want to use it for fear of putting a scratch on it or something.

That said, it is a beauty!

I have never seen a 209A with the blue knobs though. I have a set of blue knobs from a 225 that, sadly, was beyond resuscitation. I didn't know the 209A's ever came that way.

Wait! I just thought of a reason to bid on it - I need the probe for my white-faced 209A. Just kidding. It's not gonna happen.

It's all yours!