The preslector gearbox

[Telecolor 3007]

1st... for the moment I don't posses a driving licence, but I hope I will get one. So I can't tell from an exactly point of view how driving a manual gearbox car is, but for me it seems hard to move the shifter and press the clutch pedal is the same time (especially when the shifter is mounted on the floor).
The automatic looks more nice.
Long time ago, I've heard on a series of documentaries broacasted by "Discovery" Chanel about preselector gearboxes, but during the time, I forgot about them. While having curiosities about British automobiles I rediscoverd them.
In U.S.A. you had the "Cord": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aozO4Wk9l0
But there wasn't to much interes for the car unfourtenley (the gerabox wasn't relaible either).

In Europe, automobiles (and some buses) had Wilson preslect type gerabox.
Especilly British made, but "Talbot" from France (there was also a British "Talbot"). This was used up the to the '50's. https://daimlerandlanchester.com/how...-pre-selector/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JLzjwUyb-E&t=211s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou_p3Y_oZMg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loXi_009EiE&t=265s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ604sMV3Dk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6P5ycxnHTI

Well, excpet for the fact the steering wheel is on the right side, for me, as a potential drivers this gerabox system looks intresting. Both "Cord" and "Wilson". Easy to move the gear lever (especially at Wilson, where you have a contiunius move, no side moving), near the steering wheel, you don't have to push the pedal in the same time.
I don't know if I would ever have the chance to drive such a car, but I'm curios how many of you did know about this type of gerabox.
It's a pitty they didn't countinued with the ideea.

[Chip Chester]

There's one in a '39 Daimler Drophead Coupe ('43? chassis) about a block down the street from me. I've been offered the chance to drive it this summer. (Date explanation: pre-war body, post-war running gear/frame. Seems there was some local unpleasantness in the interim.)

I didn't watch all the vids you mentioned, but the Daimler site seems spot on with the driving instructions I was given last year. (Could have driven it last year, but I had limited available time, and didn't want to rush thru the transmission plus get my head around the whole right-hand-drive detail.


http://videokarma.org/attachment.php...1&d=1555804440

[Telecolor 3007]

"Daimler" used this gearbox in some postwar models too. They where luxury cars.
In Romania there was a "Daimler" with preselector (car rented for weddings), but the small firm that had it seems to be out of business. It wans't from Bucharest or a nearby place...

[init4fun]

Originally Posted by Telecolor 3007

1st... for the moment I don't posses a driving licence, but I hope I will get one. So I can't tell from an exactly point of view how driving a manual gearbox car is, but for me it seems hard to move the shifter and press the clutch pedal is the same time (especially when the shifter is mounted on the floor).

Hello Telecolor ,

I know when you've never done it before it looks challenging , but believe me once you get your driver's license if you did drive a manual shift car you'd be banging through the gears like a pro in a week or two's time . The thing is , ANY kind of "slushbox" (automatic shift transmission) robs power from the engine to do it's automatic shifting and a given car with a manual will be quicker than an automatic . Now I'm sure some are gonna argue that the modern automatic is very close to the performance of a manual , but that pesky torque converter with it's 12 (ish) percent slip* simply cannot deliver 100% of the engine's power to the rest of the drivetrain like a fully engaged clutch can . Look into the motorcycle world , there is not one serious "crotch rocket" (performance motorcycle for street use) being sold with an automatic transmission and those few seconds of performance lost to the torque converter are the reason why . In my opinion there is only one situation whee the automatic beats the manual ; heavy stop & go traffic jams ....


* Yes I fully realize modern torque converters "lock up" (become a straight through coupling with no slip) at a pre determined road speed , but "off the line" where seconds count the torque converter's slip is present and robbing some of those precious seconds .

[Telecolor 3007]

I know it takes from power, but I like the command of it.

[MadMan]

Well the preselector gearbox was a fascinating concept. The Tucker also had one (it was literally just a Cord's transmission). But I think it fell out of favor for a couple of reasons, at least in America (which typically led the world in automotive stuff back in the day). First, the preselector was generally a complicated setup that lent itself to being a 'luxury' option for a car, well, only something available on one expensive car in America, anyway. Cord went out of business in the late 30s, I believe, and when the time came that some other companies might make their own preselectors, they were a little busy building tanks for the war. After that, they were really trying to get by with the old shit they had before the war. But then, automatic transmissions started becoming available, and those became the luxury option, so there was really no need (from a business point of view) to justify selling preselectors.

Another is that purely on being a complicated electromechanical contrivance, it wasn't particularly reliable. Then several companies (I believe) like Chevy, introduced vacuum power assisted shifting, so that took the effort out of shifting (although that fell out of favor, as well). And after automatics took a foothold in the market, manual transmissions really got delegated to being the 'cheap' option, or rarely, the 'sporty' option, neither of which are suited to a fancy preselector.

All that having been said, though, the concept of a preselector is really cool. And part of me does wonder why it never caught on in europe/notUS, because automatics didn't catch on there for a long time. Still, even, it's uncommon. Not sure.

Anyway, more to the point, don't worry about shifting a manual. Literally the easiest thing in the world. And it's clutch > shift > release clutch, so not at the same time, exactly. Now being able to work the clutch and the gas pedal at the same time, in order to get moving... now that's the hard part. But like anything else, you'll learn, and you'll be an old pro in no time at all.

Originally Posted by init4fun

Now I'm sure some are gonna argue that the modern automatic is very close to the performance of a manual...

I will! Only a of couple things:
A: There is a reason most drag race cars have automatic transmissions. Because what tiny amount of power you lose in the torque converter right off the line (and it's really not much with a high stall racing converter [not to mention there is a bit of slip in a clutch right at takeoff anyway]) is easily made up for with the near-instantaneous shifts. Something that's quite literally impossible to do as fast with a manual shifter and clutch.

B: Cars made within the last couple of years are extremely liberal with the torque converter lock-up. So much so that it's on basically all of the time. They do this to meet fuel efficiency requirements. Even so, in an ordinary car - anything short of a race car, anyway - there's really no practicable difference in performance or efficiency, between a manual or automatic.

But I don't really know anything about motorcycle automatics. Didn't even know they had autos lol.

[Electronic M]

Technically GM introduced the automatic in 1941 models in their Cadillac and Oldsmobile lines and it spread to Pontiac after the war ( Chev and Buick opting to delay to each develop their own cheaper and smoother trans respectively).

Mopar had something like 2 or 3 semi-automatic pre-war dating back before you the GM hydromatic...they were so good Mopar actually slept at the switch and didn't come out with a full modern automatic till it looked stupid not to have one. Some of their manuals could do clutchless shifts between 1 and 2 as well as 3 and 4 (with 2 and 3 being full manual clutch shifts)... They also had fluid drive which usually was a full manual(IIRC they paired it with some of their other semi auto systems) with a fluid coupling that allowed you to shift into second or third and drive the car all day without touching the clutch even at stop lights (this gave Mopar cab service dominance for something like a decade)... IIRC there was some manual transmission they offered where one could shift without using the clutch too.

[Telecolor 3007]

Automatic gearboxes had evolved along time. Yes, old ones had power loss on the torque convertor (the hidraulic one still have), but the new hidraulic have electronic gear change (so much better on this side) and there are some non-hdyraulic automatic gearboxes.
Anyway, it's a matter of choose. I've seen some really stupid arguments on youtube about manual versus automatic (on Romanian vlogs - most people around here don't even know that the are some other models of geraboxes). So no need for aruging.
In Romanian automatic hydraulic gearboxes (cutii de viteze automate hidraulice) are somtimes called "hidramate" (hidramată is the singular) probably beucase of "Hydromanic"... but sometimes is a general term for all automic geraboxes.

"Tucker" had made some nice cars, very advanced, but the saftey and modernity had to wait in the U.S.A. In Europe we where making advances in the '50's... "Mercedes" Ponton had crumple zones.
But why they didn't tried to improve the system, in order to make it relaible?


Probably "Wilson" system needed to much maintinance. When British quit it still not all of theyr cars full syncromesch gearboxes. They could improve the system, but they didn't (otherwise, if you didn't confused the gearchange pedal with the clutch pedal and do thing like starting to drive the car in 3rd gear + lack of meintenance, the Wilson preselector was harder to damage then a manual gerabox by unexperienced drivers).

Another things that they didn't improved was the automatic clutch. There where 2 types of automatic clutch: converter (Saxomat/Olymat) and vakumatic (I think the 1st had aslo vacum). The British had one like vakumatic, but I forgot it's name. Not relaible, but they could be improved. I don't why they where so dumb and they didn't try to make a better system if the other methodes failed. For some drivers it would have had been more easy for not having to press the clutch pedal. O.k., I hate the dern clutch!
Oh, "Panhard et Levassor" Dynamic had automat clutch up to 1939. And unlike the other automated clucthc, you could switch to manual clutch if you wanted to. Freedom to choose.
http://doyennes-panhard-levassor.fr/...car-p26-27.jpg (whole article: http://doyennes-panhard-levassor.fr/en/last-news/ )

In Romania we used buses (both new and second-hand) with vacuum operated shitfts.

[Sandy G]

Telecolor-Let me offer you a few suggestions. I'm 62, have had a license since I was 16. I've taught several people how to drive, the last one being my little "Girlfriend", Bethany, starting when she was like 8 or 9. I taught her in my 2000 V-10 Ford Excursion 4X4 SUV, which is WAY bigger than almost any vehicle you're likely to encounter in Bucharest, except for leftover Soviet Chaikas, Zlins, & other chrome plated bulldozers. I'd try hard to find an automatic car when you're 1st starting out, an automatic will save you the trouble of stalling out, & possibly having inadvertent collisions w/other cars. If you have a BIG empty parking lot where you can practice w/o being bothered-or bothering anyone else, that's a step ahead, too. Practise backing up into parking spots a LOT, to where it becomes second nature to you, & hopefully, you won't have to deal w/a smashed tail light, headlamp, or irate owner of the car you just tapped... Once you get comfortable w/driving, & don't scare yrself anymore, then maybe you might start want to learn how to operate a manual. . Again, start out slow, take things EASY, find the biggest hill in Bucharest, come to a complete stop, & attempt to climb it to the top in yr manual-and NOT stall out, or start going ass-backwards... Some might argue w/me on learning on an automatic, but if Bucharest is like every other metropolitan area I've ever been in, you will want every aid to effortless driving you can get... The goals should ALWAYS be-1) Don't get hurt, 2)-Don't hurt anyone else, 3) Don't hurt another car, & 4)Don't hurt YOUR car. Sounds intimidating, but I'm pretty sure you'll do FINE...Driving isn't really all that difficult, & can be a HELLUVA lot of fun !!

[Chip Chester]

Taught my son to drive manual in about ten minutes when he was 12. I had a warehouse with large private lot at the time. We went out in my '60s sports car -- manual everything. I adjusted the idle to about 1200 rpm, then we worked solely on being able to get the car moving without killing the engine, using only the clutch. No accelerator, no brake. Let him focus in on the friction point for smooth engagement without shudder or over-slipping. Nothing to hit, plus car has a lever e-brake I could stop it with. Once he learned the dynamics of engagement, we introduced the accelerator pedal to the equation, and worked on real-world acceleration. Then I dropped the idle back down for him to put everything together.

After that, the next lesson was hill-holding using lever e-brake in conjunction with standard clutch/accel operation.

Added bonus: no father/son teaching tension!

All that said, the smoothest-shifting auto I've ever driven is in my 2500 Suburban. Entrance ramps in particular are just a continuous smooth application of power. Pretty good for a 16-year-old truck.

[Telecolor 3007]

In Bucharest there aren't too many old Soviet big cars. You barley see one.
But yesterday I've seen a big "Chevrolet" 4 x 4.
It's more common to see big Europeanen and Asian (Japan, South Korea) big automobiles then ex-Soviet ones.
There is an auto poligon in Bucharest where you can go and drive if you don't posses an auto driving licence.

I will try to see how an manual gearbox is. Shees, why the couldn't kept column shifters.
But still I'm intrested in the preselector. I've heard abou it at least 14 years ago on a documentary on Discovery Chanlles and I was intrested. Forgot about it, and by chance I rediscover it... think while I was looking for old British cars.

[Sandy G]

Yeah, Daimler-Benz started focusing on vehicle safety not long after the shooting stopped in 1945.The "Pontons" had extremely rigid floors, & I think, collapsible steering columns, long before anyone else thought of them. They soon redesigned their interiors so that the knobs were either soft, or wouldn't penetrate an eye socket, rear-view mirrors would break off easily rather than embed themselves in yr forehead, they had pretty decent seat belt systems, the door locks were virtually unburstable, & wouldn't spill the people bouncing all over the road things like this. Ford had a safety campaign in 1956 where they offered seatbelts & a few other items, & Chevy ate Ford's lunch that year, saleswise, anyway. Actually, virtually NO US cars were safe, really, til the late 1960s, when they started putting radial tires & disc brakes on some cars. The drum brakes, you had 2, maybe 3 panic stops, & you were done til they cooled down a bit. I still shudder whenever I watch that video of a mint 1959 Chevy "Kissing face" w/a 1994 Chevy...I think they hit at 45 MPH, the people in the '94 car might have walked away, but everyone in the '59 would have been hamburger..

[Telecolor 3007]

But why "Chevy" ate "Ford"?

[Sandy G]

It was all a question of STYLING. In 1955, all 3 big US carmakers came out w/new styling. GM/Chevy's styling was judged better than Ford's, but Chevy had a "Facelift" for '56, & a rather heavily restyled model for '57. I'm a '57 model, but I prefer the '56 Chevy styling... The Chevy was known as "The Hot One" in '55, the Ford put out their safety campaign in '56, & Chevy countered with "The Hot One's even HOTTER"... & outsold Ford by a Bunch... The 2 cars were, along w/Plymouth, Chrysler's answer to them both, pretty evenly matched each other in performance & features, but a lot of observers felt Chevy had the best styling, which sold LOTS of cars back then.

[Sandy G]

In getting back to preselector gearboxes, I remember reading a very little bit about them over the years. Nothing much really stands out, w/the exception that they were somewhat troublesome & maybe were typically installed in racing/high performance cars. I seem to remember another brand being "Cotal", but again nothing much beyond that name comes to mind. One slight tidbit-I think Ralph Stein mentioned in one of his books was that one driver in one race that I can't remember where or when, flubbed a gearchange w/one & blew the motor. I don't know how much stock I'd put into that story, since I can't remember any further details than what I related, & for that I'm sorry, but there you go....