Two pieces of equipment: BK 1470 scope/HP 3200b signal gen

[BandDirector]

Hey all,

I apparently do not know what the heck I am doing, despite reading the manuals, and trying to practice using patience to use these two devices.

One is the HP VHF Oscillator 3200B- I do not understand how to observe waveforms on my BK 1460 oscilloscope. Each time I sit down to try to teach myself how to use either of these devices, I find I do not have some kind of probe, or I need to connect a capacitor in series to read incoming RF from my RCA KRK46M tuner to adjust voltage, etc.

How does the VHF generator, which has front inputs of Pulse, or AM/B+ inputs, take an incoming signal from a tv tuner? How do you know that the tuner is receiving a signal, such as 44.5 mc according to the service manual, so that I can adjust various traps to match voltages, and check Peak to Peak?

These are just the beginning of my questions!

You can see the service manual image towards the end of my posts "Help with RCA" etc on the Rectangle tube tv page.

[Electronic M]

You can't properly align a TV with the HP generator and scope alone (without it taking 100x longer than it should).
The HP generator appears to be a lab instrument and only useful as a single marker generator.

To align a TV you need a Sweep generator and a marker generator (sometimes sold combined into one housing and called a Sweep-Marker generator...The B&K 415 is an example) and also an oscilloscope.
A sweep generator has a RF oscillator who's frequency is modulated (swept) by a lower frequency (usually 60Hz)....so a sweep generator designed to align a TV with a 45MHz IF will output 38MHz and that frequency will increase till increase to 48MHz faster than you can blink then it will instantly be back at 38MHz and and repeat this cycle 60 times a second.

A TV marker generator emits a single frequency that should remain constant...In TV sweep alignment you often need to see multiple markers at once so a TV marker generator often consists to 5-10 different fixed frequency oscillators in a box with switches to turn individual oscillators on and off...often there will be a frequency in a TV alignment proceedure that is not one of the fixed markers in a TV marker generator....when that's the case a variable frequency VHF modulator like the HP (and a frequency counter to accurately set it's frequency) will work for a custom frequency marker.

Your oscilloscope is a 10MHz scope....that means it can't display a recognizable sinewave above 10MHz....it will display a fat trace (the height roughly corresponding to amplitude ) for frequencies above 10MHz (the higher above 10MHz the less accurate the amplitude and the weaker the response of the scope.

The spikey camel back wave form you see in your TVs alignment proceedure is the plot of the IF frequency response (vertical axis is amplitude and horizontal is frequency). It's basically the graph you would get if you took your HP and injected a signal at the bottom frequency of the IF response curve, measured the Voltage at the video detector produced by it, increased the HPs frequency 10KHz, and repeated till you hit the top frequency of the IF response....the sweep generator and scope take this several hour manual measure and plot task and automates it such that it does the plot on the scope face 60 times a second.

[BandDirector]

Welp, okay then. A new step one!

That was probably as succint as you could make it, so I will decode and process what you wrote. I think it worth my time and effort to find what you have suggested.

I jumped in too early and started gathering equipment before I understood what I was getting in to. There are a pair of local brothers that recently stopped taking non-commercial electronics work, they are the type that could help me find what I need.

I think I'll shoot them an email. I wish I knew what I could do what what I have.

This board is like a great hivemind, it just can only suggest and predict things like getting in over your head!

This scope mentions sweep and sync/triggering, what then is its purpose?

[Electronic M]

Another thing to be aware of is in the entire decade of 50s TV IFs were transitioning from 21MHz IFs to 44MHz IFs....Some brands jumped quickly, some stayed late some would do either on the same chassis and which you got depend on wether you had UHF...
Most generators only did ONE IF band so you need to know what your set(s) use and what the generator can do before you buy. Also most generators that did 21MHz IFs are tube devices that need rebuilding and calibration which is well beyond beginner level. The 44MHz IF standard lasted to the end of analog TV so 60's-80's transistorized 44MHz generators are relatively easy to find working to calibration standards.

TV video IF alignment is not a task for a beginner unless you came from the ham radio community, have a degree in electrical engineering or were involved in something else that gives you a fairly in-depth knowledge of electronics theory.
I've read enough about it that 15 years into collecting and 5 years after receiving my BSEE this summer I reluctantly started to use the alignment equipment I slowly accumulated over the course of a few years.

Originally Posted by BandDirector

Welp, okay then. A new step one!

That was probably as succint as you could make it, so I will decode and process what you wrote. I think it worth my time and effort to find what you have suggested.

I jumped in too early and started gathering equipment before I understood what I was getting in to. There are a pair of local brothers that recently stopped taking non-commercial electronics work, they are the type that could help me find what I need.

I think I'll shoot them an email. I wish I knew what I could do what what I have.

This board is like a great hivemind, it just can only suggest and predict things like getting in over your head!

This scope mentions sweep and sync/triggering, what then is its purpose?

Triggering is usually for digital circuits and special applications like that. Depending on the triggering circuit the scope will either sync it's horizontal time base to a triggering pulse or sweep once and only once per each incoming trigger pulse. I've never needed to use the external triggering input of my scope for tube TV work.

I believe most TV sweep marker generators will require the scope to opperate in XY mode and give the scope both X and Y input.... Atleast that is how it works on my B&K 415.

Another word of advice, beware of Lab grade sweep generators....Many lab grade sweep generators can not provide wide enough of a frequency sweep to be useful for TV work and some don't work at TV IF frequencies...the first one I bought was a lab grade generator and mostly meant for audio (came in late to the auction I bought it at and couldn't look at it before it bidding), and I've seen many like it since.

[Electronic M]

A couple of additional notes you can align audio and the oscillator in most sets tuners without a sweep marker generator. Often you can get by doing one of those depending on what the trouble is. Ask about it before you do it though...the audio method depends on whether the set uses intercarrier or split sound IF and wether you can get any audio from your signal source or not, and osc adjustment should not be attempted if you can't get video to pass through the set, and may require a specific channel sequence in some tuners.

If your IF doesn't pass video signal there are bad components that need to be found before the alignment or a complete amatuer messed with the IF ( such as the auto mechanic " I bet if I tighten all these screws it will work" approach to ruining TV alignment).

[Notimetolooz]

BandDirector old bean, like most novices you do not know how much you don't know. Following some threads here may make it look easy but things are very involved. You need to be very methodical.
Here is a link to a very good talk presented on youtube by w2aew, someone that is very knowledgeable about many electronics subjects. Check out his collection of videos on many aspects of oscilloscopes and other test equipment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYEMPm0c9kY
Not everything on youtube is good, anyone can put a video there, no one fact checks.
That B&K scope is a dual channel 10MHz one as far as I can tell, it should fill the bill for what you need. Whether it is in good working shape is an unknown however.
If I haven't already suggested this in a prior post, this is a good guide to understanding TV technology.
https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSH...r-5th-1955.pdf
BandDirector, you must realize that these forums are not to provide a private unpaid tutor in TV servicing. To learn everything you need to know would literally take 1000's of posts. Perhaps that is why so few respond to some threads, they just don't have the time and energy to get involved in a thread that will stretch on for a year(s).