Videokarma.org

Go Back   Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums > Solid State CRT Televisions

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 06-21-2019, 04:36 PM
KentTeffeteller's Avatar
KentTeffeteller KentTeffeteller is offline
Gimpus Stereophilus!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Athens, TN
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
Depends on the vintage....Many tube and hybrid color Japanese sets were a cramped pain in the but to work on, with as bad or worse a rats nest as any American made color set of the time....Whats more parts and connections were often hidden and or buried under other parts and connections.....One of the more annoying examples I can think of is my early 70's Panasonic 6 tube hybrid....I've been putting it it off since it had lytic type hum in the sound, and the main cans on the chassis may as well be a permanent part of the chassis....They are packed in on all sides such that I can't remove them without basically tearing the chassis in half and disconnecting tons of soldered wiring...I can't recall if I can even access the terminals, but I KNOW they did not leave me enough room near them to mount new ones....So if I need to replace them I'm going to have to get VERY creative and or work VERY hard...I'd rather do 10 similar cap jobs on Service Saver Zeniths, RCA tube/hybrid sets, or Admirals of the day...
Agreed highly, and schematics, service manuals, parts and service support from the manufacturer was way better from the USA manufacturers than the import sets of the era. Panasonic and Sony were OK, but parts were slower to get, and service support slower in coming when these sets were new, and reasonably recent. This aspect got better by the middle to late 1970's.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-24-2019, 09:27 PM
KentTeffeteller's Avatar
KentTeffeteller KentTeffeteller is offline
Gimpus Stereophilus!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Athens, TN
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainclock View Post
Speaking of Japanese Rats nest wiring, but have you ever seen the inside of an old Pioneer or Kenwood-TRIO or Sony Tube powered Stereo Receiver or Amplifier or Tuner? Those things are a nightmare when it comes to having to replace capacitors or resistors or having to replace toasty wiring...
Pioneer and Trio-Kenwood made tube receivers. Sony didn't make one or didn't offer one in the USA until the TA 1120 integrated of 1965, a silicon transistorized amplifier and the 1967 STR 6120 receiver, the best receiver Sony ever made. Are the Fisher 500C. 800C, or the HH Scott equivalent any harder to repair than a Pioneer or Trio-Kenwood or Sansui tube equivalent model?. I suspect no worse once you understand their quirks and differences, which is the USA tube equivalent.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-25-2019, 07:09 AM
AlanInSitges's Avatar
AlanInSitges AlanInSitges is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Sitges, Catalonia, Spain
Posts: 446
In the context of this discussion it's probably worth putting a link here to the PBS Frontline documentary Coming from Japan.

This film is 30 years old now, and chronicles the decline and fall of the American TV industry (and consumer electronics as a whole). Spoiler: it was a long con by a group of Japanese companies, led by Matsushita, planned and executed for years: high prices in their protected market to offset losses from dumping products in the US, buy up the American companies as they began to fail, and shut them down. It was a brilliant plan that worked perfectly. The final nail in the coffin was when the Nixon administration traded the TV industry (via not enforcing tariffs) to Japan in exchange for permission to put a military base there.

This is, to me, a heartbreaking film. It's full of candid interviews with executives and employees of Zenith and Motorola/Quasar who are first sounding worried, and then alarmed, and finally defeated as their entire industry is dismantled around them.

So many great brands, that were part of communities, and stood for something, gone. Zenith, Motorola, Packard Bell, Admiral, Sylvania, RCA, Magnavox, GE...each of these were factories where American people worked, who bought parts from American companies, and employed American ad agencies, and transport companies, and on and on.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:43 AM
maxhifi's Avatar
maxhifi maxhifi is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,841
I saw that documentary when it originally aired, and it severely affected my view on Japanese consumer electronics. It doesn't account for the success of Sony, which had a technical advantage (the trinitron). It is hard to feel much sympathy for the Japanese companies now as they fail in the face of Korean and Chinese competition.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-26-2019, 05:56 AM
TV-collector's Avatar
TV-collector TV-collector is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Düsseldorf / Germany
Posts: 229
Smile

These are my 50 Cent for that case:

If you take a look on the japanese electronics industry you have to take a look on the history of Japan, too.
Japan was a closen country for hundreds of years, no one in, no one out, like North Korea today.
Japan began to open step by step after an american agression with a battle ship entering the
harbour of Tokyo saying if you don`t deal with us we will shoot down the whole city made of paper.
That was around 1880 or so.
That leaded to a 100 – 110 Volts power system, followed by the american TV standard.

In the thirties the german radio service magazine called „Funkschau“ warned Germany and
the rest of the world, that japanese technic students spreading signs that they want to rule the
world!!!!
Yes, that was in 1935 or close by!
During that time american electronics companies were giving the japs the shoes to learn to run.
One of the examples for these kind of „joint ventures“ was Nippon Columbia, started with TV-
production in 1953 at Kawasaki.
Btw. Japan is still a closen society by the culture and the market.
This is visable for tourists and collectors of vintage radios and TVs.

I own a fine collection of vintage 30s-50s original jap radios incl. hornspeakers and 50s TV sets
incl. some roundies.
Tubes and chassis constructions are typical american based. Even the cabinet style is about 90%
american based. Only a few sets have a european style or something japanese (like a temple).
About 97% of all japanese pre-war radios were one circle radios.
Unusual is the american writing on sets, ON/OFF, VOLUME; SOUND, BRIGHTNESS etc. is standard.
I asked a jap friend about it and he told that english was "hip".
They never produced sets with scales and japanese letters for the stations! Most radios have only
the frequencies on the dial, only very few giving names of stations.
It is uncommon that consumer products were in that time offered with user informations in another
language.
O.K., today everything is in english here in europe.
Japanese electronics stuff was always back in time, with the victory of the transistor in small radios
at the end of the 50s and in small TVs in the beginning of the 50s, they started the fight.
Japanese radios used up to the mid 50s old american tubes, the ones with the 2 thick pins. Up to the
late 50s Octal tubes were common.
The main used CRT diameter was up to the beginning 60s 14“, in western Europe 21“-24“!
It is hard to understand that this industry was strong enough to knock down the whole world!

Something about japanese pricing:
It is for sure, that selling electrical sets cheap, but selling spare parts expensive when no
alternative is given, is a way to take the customers cash!

Example jap trap 1:
My father brought me a big Sony Stereo amp from curbside. It was only 5 years old in 1982.
The amp was kicked out in the street because of the expensive service costs!
I by myself paid for 2 original Sony output transistors close to 80,- Deutsch Marks!
For one of these transistors was a similiar american/european transistor available, price: 5,50 DM!

Example jap trap 2: One of my father`s employees bought himself a Datsun Sunny station wagon in the mid 70s.
This car was not a luxury car!
A short time after the end of the warranty the tail gate wiper motor went south!
The price of the replacement (made of gold) in 1978: (800,- Deutsch Marks – in words eigth
hundred!)
What do you think you could have bought for 800,- DM in 1978?
For just 798,- DM you could have bought a luxury DUAL record player CS 721 incl. Shure V 15 III
What did you pay in ´78 for a tail gate wiper motor from a mid 70s Chevy or Ford wagon?
Now its your turn!
Talking about rat nests, who ever opened a luxury Marantz (ex US company!) Esotheric amp?
My brother picked up one once curbside!
Two well educated professional TV repair technicians lost their interest to repair it.
Both burned down 2-3 sets of output transistors on their own costs.
Couldn`t believe that someone will place so many caps, resistors, transistors on that small
solid state board!
CRAP!

Regards,
TV-collector
__________________
Scotty, beam me up, there is no more 4/3 Television and AM radio in Germany!

Last edited by TV-collector; 08-26-2019 at 06:19 AM. Reason: writing error
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #36  
Old 08-28-2019, 12:08 AM
Opcom's Avatar
Opcom Opcom is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 78
Recall working on Zenith System III and that it was well designed and advanced. Some repair shops made a lot of money by repairing the modules, rather than just replacing them. Also recall RCA at the time of transition from GE ownership to Thomson. Huge change in design.

CRTs for the last of the large RCA TV sets were made by Hitachi in those days, IIRC around the early to mid 1980s. There was an issue with how the new CRTs where run in the sets in the quest for more brightness - the high brightness areas would bloom and look 'ugly' for lack of better explanation. I worked for an RCA distributor at the time and was asked to look into it because sets were coming back. I found that the problem happened during high peak beam currents. The factory enginers said that the high currents were heating the shadow mask causing deformation. It was hushed up for the most part and some changes made. The CRTs were recalled and internal changes made for the new replacements by Hitachi, and none should be out there but If one happens to have one of the sets with the troublesome CRT just lower the peak beam current.

I'd rather have the last of the US-made RCA sets than any other. They were assembled in the states with the Hitachi CRTs and other parts manufactured in Mexico, USA, and Canada.
__________________
Timeless Information for Retro-Tech Hobbyists and Hardware Hackers

No Kowtow

Last edited by Opcom; 08-28-2019 at 07:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-28-2019, 05:29 PM
zeno's Avatar
zeno zeno is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 4,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxhifi View Post
I saw that documentary when it originally aired, and it severely affected my view on Japanese consumer electronics. It doesn't account for the success of Sony, which had a technical advantage (the trinitron). It is hard to feel much sympathy for the Japanese companies now as they fail in the face of Korean and Chinese competition.
IIRC Sony was not named in the dumping law suit. In the mid 70's. Sony
made a profit selling sets. others didnt. They did it through image.
Prices were high to. A base 19" Sony listed for near $600 & sold in the low fives. A base RCA or Zenith could be had for under $400, a GE under $300

73 Zeno
LFOD !
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:42 PM
Sandy G's Avatar
Sandy G Sandy G is offline
Spiteful Old Cuss
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Rogersville, Tennessee
Posts: 9,571
I STILL say WE did it to ourselves in killing off our consumer electronics industry.. I remember going w/my parents in say late 1969, early '70 to a furniture store that sold Home Entertainment centers, "Occaisional" furniture, stuff like that. It was NOT an "El Cheapo" kind of place. They had a pretty good line of RCA, Zenith, Sylvania, Motorola "Consoles"... The QUALITY on them was ABYSSIMAL, even to a kid of 12, 13 like me. Wood was all either plastiwood, or fiberboard, hardly any of it on any of these high-zoot-$1K-"Home entertainment Centers" was even approaching REAL. The plastic knobs, buttons, all that was cheap, nasty feeling "Carnival grade" plastic, that I managed to barely touch, & SEVERAL of 'em came off in my hand. The RCA IIRC was sposedly their TOTLfanciest color set, the others were, too, but their pic quality left a LOT to be desired. The "Stirreos" sounded cheap, tinny, boomy-ass bass terrible separation, and the RCA, even on the local FM station was deaf as a stone. Like I said, these were all TOTL "Consuls", I wouldn't have given you a plugged nickel for the lot of 'em. The finish/varnish, IIRC on one of 'em was oily, greasy feeling & STUNK-Kinda smelt like they'd mixed Bat Guano in w/the varnish... If THAT was the best the mighty Amurrican Consumer electronics industry was capable of making, well, Methinks we are better off w/o them. Oh, & yeah, I think none of the TVs were "Soiled State", they were all, mebbe not the Sylvania-STILL largely Tooobs.
__________________
Benevolent Despot
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-29-2019, 12:12 PM
AlanInSitges's Avatar
AlanInSitges AlanInSitges is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Sitges, Catalonia, Spain
Posts: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxhifi View Post
It doesn't account for the success of Sony, which had a technical advantage (the trinitron).
If only Philco had persevered just a little longer...
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-30-2019, 10:55 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hucknall, Nottingham, England.
Posts: 245
Here in Britain we had almost all our TV market to ourselves as no other countries set makers could be bothered to make 405 lines sets, the only one AFAIK was Sony. This changed in the early 70's when we went over to 625 lines when everyone & their dog started exporting TV's to us. Some were tweaked to work in the UK by having the sound carrier frequency increased to 6 Mhz & the VHF tuner removed, on my parents Sony KV1800 there was a blanking plate where the VHF tuner should have been. Don't know what the last British made TV set was...
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #41  
Old 09-25-2019, 07:36 AM
KentTeffeteller's Avatar
KentTeffeteller KentTeffeteller is offline
Gimpus Stereophilus!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Athens, TN
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by TV-collector View Post
These are my 50 Cent for that case:

If you take a look on the japanese electronics industry you have to take a look on the history of Japan, too.
Japan was a closen country for hundreds of years, no one in, no one out, like North Korea today.
Japan began to open step by step after an american agression with a battle ship entering the
harbour of Tokyo saying if you don`t deal with us we will shoot down the whole city made of paper.
That was around 1880 or so.
That leaded to a 100 – 110 Volts power system, followed by the american TV standard.

In the thirties the german radio service magazine called „Funkschau“ warned Germany and
the rest of the world, that japanese technic students spreading signs that they want to rule the
world!!!!
Yes, that was in 1935 or close by!
During that time american electronics companies were giving the japs the shoes to learn to run.
One of the examples for these kind of „joint ventures“ was Nippon Columbia, started with TV-
production in 1953 at Kawasaki.
Btw. Japan is still a closen society by the culture and the market.
This is visable for tourists and collectors of vintage radios and TVs.

I own a fine collection of vintage 30s-50s original jap radios incl. hornspeakers and 50s TV sets
incl. some roundies.
Tubes and chassis constructions are typical american based. Even the cabinet style is about 90%
american based. Only a few sets have a european style or something japanese (like a temple).
About 97% of all japanese pre-war radios were one circle radios.
Unusual is the american writing on sets, ON/OFF, VOLUME; SOUND, BRIGHTNESS etc. is standard.
I asked a jap friend about it and he told that english was "hip".
They never produced sets with scales and japanese letters for the stations! Most radios have only
the frequencies on the dial, only very few giving names of stations.
It is uncommon that consumer products were in that time offered with user informations in another
language.
O.K., today everything is in english here in europe.
Japanese electronics stuff was always back in time, with the victory of the transistor in small radios
at the end of the 50s and in small TVs in the beginning of the 50s, they started the fight.
Japanese radios used up to the mid 50s old american tubes, the ones with the 2 thick pins. Up to the
late 50s Octal tubes were common.
The main used CRT diameter was up to the beginning 60s 14“, in western Europe 21“-24“!
It is hard to understand that this industry was strong enough to knock down the whole world!

Something about japanese pricing:
It is for sure, that selling electrical sets cheap, but selling spare parts expensive when no
alternative is given, is a way to take the customers cash!

Example jap trap 1:
My father brought me a big Sony Stereo amp from curbside. It was only 5 years old in 1982.
The amp was kicked out in the street because of the expensive service costs!
I by myself paid for 2 original Sony output transistors close to 80,- Deutsch Marks!
For one of these transistors was a similiar american/european transistor available, price: 5,50 DM!

Example jap trap 2: One of my father`s employees bought himself a Datsun Sunny station wagon in the mid 70s.
This car was not a luxury car!
A short time after the end of the warranty the tail gate wiper motor went south!
The price of the replacement (made of gold) in 1978: (800,- Deutsch Marks – in words eigth
hundred!)
What do you think you could have bought for 800,- DM in 1978?
For just 798,- DM you could have bought a luxury DUAL record player CS 721 incl. Shure V 15 III
What did you pay in ´78 for a tail gate wiper motor from a mid 70s Chevy or Ford wagon?
Now its your turn!
Talking about rat nests, who ever opened a luxury Marantz (ex US company!) Esotheric amp?
My brother picked up one once curbside!
Two well educated professional TV repair technicians lost their interest to repair it.
Both burned down 2-3 sets of output transistors on their own costs.
Couldn`t believe that someone will place so many caps, resistors, transistors on that small
solid state board!
CRAP!

Regards,
TV-collector
Problem A: TV repairmen in the day really didn't have the expertise or test equipment needed for better HiFi repairs. Which itself is a specialist field. A Marantz amplifier of the era wasn't something the TV repairman could really fix well. Secondly, the Sony you had wasn't Sony at their best, the STR 6120 was. Secondly, you're in Germany, parts for imported items cost more. Dual parts for you cost less than they do for me, likewise Thorens parts. Mercedes-Benz parts, VW and Audi parts, etc. As they're local for you, and imported for me, and there's USA middlemen involved. There are great, good, and not so good German equipment out there. I like the best of it well.

Last edited by KentTeffeteller; 09-25-2019 at 07:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©Copyright 2012 VideoKarma.org, All rights reserved.