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  #1  
Old 09-10-2014, 12:20 PM
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NoPegs NoPegs is offline
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Question Philco 46-1203, anything special about it?

I found one of these 46-1203 units at a local thrift, the price is "reduced" to $65.

What it has going for it:

All knobs.
No major damage.
80% of the decals are excellent. You can guess which ones are worn!
Rotted line-cord so I know nobody plugged it in recently.
Flocking on the platter is still firmly attached.

What I have against it:

Price.
78 RPM only.
Not Philco's best receiver circuit.
Size.


I'm posting this here mainly to get advice if there's anything special or significant about one of these that might warrant some price haggling to acquire. It doesn't strike me as anything rare but most of my knowledge of rarity/availability is in the Atwater Kent department, not Philco.

This isn't a goodwill/sal-val style thrift, so I don't have to worry about it getting packered off for kindling if I don't "act now" on it.

The run code (I didn't take photos because the owner is a very nice lady and I don't want her to think I'm trying to flip anything.) is 211, or 2xx I didn't write it down with the model, but its in the 200s, if that makes it more or less special.

They also have a nice 19" Zenith "Space Command" born in 1990 on display. I think they wanted $28 for it? I touched up the picture controls a bit while I was passing by. I prefer the 1990 or older System 3 units myself.

Among other random things, over in the "antique/vintage" section there's a huge (larger than a Guinness can!) vacuum capacitor. They want $30 for it, so I didn't even consider it. I should take it up to the desk next time and say: "Is there a discount for knowing precisely what this is and how it functions?" for laughs.


I do value your opinions. The noise floor is currently at -34dB/FG¹ so your input should come through solidly.


¹Decibels referenced to one F*** Given.
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  #2  
Old 09-10-2014, 05:43 PM
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init4fun init4fun is offline
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I looked at the schematic for the philco , which is posted at Nostalgia Air , and I like the fact that it uses the 50X6 rectifier in a voltage doubler configuration ( a lot of designs just tie the two diodes together as a simple half wave rectifier rather than using the two diodes as a doubler) . Kudos also for having the sixth tube (the RF amplifier separate from the Osc/Mix) as most small series heater sets are only 5 tube . I kinda like the use of the Loctals (all but the 35L6 audio output are lock in tubes) but I do understand some folks aversion to them . The 78 only thing is gonna be a predictable factor for anything that old , 33.3 RPM was out in the times that saw most of these small players using the 7 pin mini tubes by then (35W4 , 50C5 , and so on)

Talk them down to $40 or $50 and have fun with it
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  #3  
Old 07-15-2015, 01:37 AM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
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I have one of these radios and the one issue I had with mine (which were some of the same concerns as yours) was that the power cord was dry rotted (which is very typical of late 1940s vintage radios that used the early "rubber" cords
and its size and the fact that it had a single speed 78 RPM only record player, but there are a couple of other things you need to be concerned about, this is an AA5 style chassis (with an extra tube thrown in for good measure) which means its a hot chassis design meaning that there's no isolation from 110v AC which means that you have to make sure the unit is unplugged when working on it, otherwise you'll get a severe shock, the other issue is that with mine the Tuner was dead on the spot with no explanation whatsoever as to why it failed and I'm afraid that might be the case with the one you're looking into as well, the record player on this unit uses a crystal cartridge (which albeit it worked on mine surprisingly enough) there's no guarantee that the cartridge will be in working order because Crystal Cartridges were notorious for "dry rotting" over the years which made them non-functional (which was due to the fact that the cartridge's element was made of Roschel Salts which when they got slightly damp they would expand and then dry out and shrink and then crumble to pieces.)

Mine I paid $20 for and even after a full recap and an unsuccessful attempt at replacing the IF Cans the radio still didn't work and the only thing that worked on it was the record player and to be honest I don't even think that the unit is really even worth paying $20 for with as many issues as this particular model can have go wrong with it.

By the way this unit DOESN'T have an RF Section its just a plain old IF circuit, and also it uses a 7w Nightlight bulb for the pilot lamp which is powered off of the AC Line going into the unit so the pilot lamp is a source of electric shock in the radio because its a 110v AC pilot lamp with no isolation of any sort.

So if I were you I would pass on this radio.
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  #4  
Old 07-15-2015, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainclock View Post
By the way this unit DOESN'T have an RF Section its just a plain old IF circuit

Then you DON'T have a 46/1203 !

The Riders volume #16 schematic , hosted at Nostalgia Air , most certainly DOES indicate the 7C7 tube to be an RF amplifier section ahead of the first detector . A two second glance at the schematic is all it will take to see that .

Also , seeing as this thread is a couple of months shy of it's first birthday , I'm betting the OP has long ago made the decision on whether to buy it or not ......
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  #5  
Old 07-15-2015, 09:57 PM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Then you DON'T have a 46/1203 !

The Riders volume #16 schematic , hosted at Nostalgia Air , most certainly DOES indicate the 7C7 tube to be an RF amplifier section ahead of the first detector . A two second glance at the schematic is all it will take to see that .

Also , seeing as this thread is a couple of months shy of it's first birthday , I'm betting the OP has long ago made the decision on whether to buy it or not ......
Well then I wonder why the people on Audio Karma told me this thing DIDN'T have an RF Section and that it more than likely wasn't worth my time fussing with if it had a dead tuner?

But whatever I've already given up on trying to fix up mine because even after replacing the suspected dead IF Can with another IF can from another similar model radio it still didn't work and even the replacement IF can was a dud (even though the person i bought the IF can from said it was pulled from a working Philco radio) so I suspect that Philco had a bad batch of IF Cans back in the day and because of that a lot of the Philco radios from the late 1930s and early 1940s all ended up with dead tuners over time which is why there aren't many Philco radios from that time period left anymore.
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2015, 09:26 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Then you DON'T have a 46/1203 !

The Riders volume #16 schematic , hosted at Nostalgia Air , most certainly DOES indicate the 7C7 tube to be an RF amplifier section ahead of the first detector . A two second glance at the schematic is all it will take to see that .

Also , seeing as this thread is a couple of months shy of it's first birthday , I'm betting the OP has long ago made the decision on whether to buy it or not ......
I just saw one at the WARC, radio auction. This one was in rather nice condition. It had the Philco record changer with the silly little turntable.
Someone bid on it and snapped it up right away. I don't remember the high bid, Tom C. EM might, as he was there.
The set does have a form of RF stage, using a 7C7 sharp cutoff RF amp and only a two gang tuner.
They are good sounding sets, by virtue of the higher B+. Don't let the fact that it only has a 78 changer. That's where the interest comes in. Those old 78's sound pretty good, when played on a unit like this.
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  #7  
Old 07-16-2015, 01:39 PM
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Electronic M Electronic M is offline
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I think the high bid was $2. I would have have bid it up to $20 no problem if I did not already own one, and was not trying to free up space. You are right about these being great machines to play 78's on. I have a good size collection of swing 78's and my Philco 46-1203 is my regular go to player for them. That is probably my favorite table radio-phono looks wise.

Captinclock: Sorry about your bad luck with yours. Mine works like a champ all around. I don't know where you are getting the impression these are a rare model....I've seen at least 6 (probably closer to 10, but I lost count a long ways back) in the past decade, and quite a few recently. The folks on Audiokarma tend not to care about pre-HiFi gear, or know much about it. You'd be better off asking us or the folks here: http://antiqueradios.com/forums/inde...d3efb2f2e1eb8b about pre-HiFi stuff. It is possible you were sold a bad IF can on purpose, or perhaps you just made a mistake in trouble shooting it or working on it.
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Old 07-16-2015, 09:27 PM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
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Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
I think the high bid was $2. I would have have bid it up to $20 no problem if I did not already own one, and was not trying to free up space. You are right about these being great machines to play 78's on. I have a good size collection of swing 78's and my Philco 46-1203 is my regular go to player for them. That is probably my favorite table radio-phono looks wise.

Captinclock: Sorry about your bad luck with yours. Mine works like a champ all around. I don't know where you are getting the impression these are a rare model....I've seen at least 6 (probably closer to 10, but I lost count a long ways back) in the past decade, and quite a few recently. The folks on Audiokarma tend not to care about pre-HiFi gear, or know much about it. You'd be better off asking us or the folks here: http://antiqueradios.com/forums/inde...d3efb2f2e1eb8b about pre-HiFi stuff. It is possible you were sold a bad IF can on purpose, or perhaps you just made a mistake in trouble shooting it or working on it.
Thanks, Tom!
I didn't think it went that cheap! I know, the Crosley you bought went for considerly more, more than I would've paid, be then, I'm rather a tight SOS.
All in all, it was an interesting event.
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2015, 12:19 AM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electronic M View Post
I think the high bid was $2. I would have have bid it up to $20 no problem if I did not already own one, and was not trying to free up space. You are right about these being great machines to play 78's on. I have a good size collection of swing 78's and my Philco 46-1203 is my regular go to player for them. That is probably my favorite table radio-phono looks wise.

Captinclock: Sorry about your bad luck with yours. Mine works like a champ all around. I don't know where you are getting the impression these are a rare model....I've seen at least 6 (probably closer to 10, but I lost count a long ways back) in the past decade, and quite a few recently. The folks on Audiokarma tend not to care about pre-HiFi gear, or know much about it. You'd be better off asking us or the folks here: http://antiqueradios.com/forums/inde...d3efb2f2e1eb8b about pre-HiFi stuff. It is possible you were sold a bad IF can on purpose, or perhaps you just made a mistake in trouble shooting it or working on it.
Well the original IF Can (it was the Primary IF Can by the way) was measuring as "open" on the primary side of the Transformer and so I bought a set of IF cans and an Oscillator coil from someone on ebay and the person I bought them from said that they were supposedly pulled from a working Philco radio and I paid like $20 for the cans which when I went to install the "new" coil into the radio (it had a piece of cardboard on it that was notched for all of the wires to thread through and I wanted to remove that piece of cardboard because the original IF can in my radio didn't have that piece of cardboard in it and it made it hard to solder the wire leads to the coil which I already had a hard enough time getting to without that piece of cardboard in the way) anyways when I went to remove that piece of cardboard I accidentally pulled the coil wires loose from the terminals which I tried my best to resolder those wires back to where they originally went but as luck would have it I might of screwed up the coil by doing that because then the coil when I measured it, measured "open" at the same spot as the original coil did and I even tried moving the coil wire leads around to different terminals and it still would measure "open" at the same spot (which is why I think that the coil was actually bad or faulty to begin with as I never actually got the chance to test the coil before I "broke it".

And that's why I was thinking that Philco might of made some faulty IF cans because if two identical IF cans were measured "open" at the same spot that were from two radios from the same company from the same time period I would think that it would point to faulty IF cans from the factory.
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:04 PM
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Fair enough. Three things to consider: That winding may be by design a higher impedance than your meter can read, the lacquer insulation on the coil wires you reconnected may not have come off during soldering thus preventing electrical contact and causing an open, If the solder terminals are at the top of the can then there should be a nut on the top outside to allow the coil/terminals to be removed from the can for solder work etc. I bought mine restored so it is one of my few working sets that I don't have repair experience with.
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Old 07-18-2015, 02:08 PM
Captainclock Captainclock is offline
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Quote:
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Fair enough. Three things to consider: That winding may be by design a higher impedance than your meter can read, the lacquer insulation on the coil wires you reconnected may not have come off during soldering thus preventing electrical contact and causing an open, If the solder terminals are at the top of the can then there should be a nut on the top outside to allow the coil/terminals to be removed from the can for solder work etc. I bought mine restored so it is one of my few working sets that I don't have repair experience with.
Well I don't know either way I wasn't able to get it working, and the unit had only nuts on the botton side of the chassis to hold the IF cans into place but notthing on top.
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Old 07-19-2015, 09:34 AM
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......The set does have a form of RF stage, using a 7C7 sharp cutoff RF amp and only a two gang tuner.......

Thank You dieseljeep , I was sure my eyes weren't deceiving me and that the 7C7 is most certainly an RF amp . To me , to be honest , I'd rather the sixth tube , if we're going from an AA5 to a six tube radio , be an additional IF amp stage rather than an RF amp . The additional IF stage would benefit selectivity but costs the extra IF transformer as well . The RF stage is not as much about improving the radio's DXing abilities as it is about keeping the set's local oscillator from bleeding back through the antenna and becoming a little mini transmitter itself , emitting a signal that interferes with neighboring receivers . The separate RF amp isn't set to amplify much stronger than the the pentagrid converter (single tube in an AA5) would be , and with no separate transformer or extra gang on the tuner the addition of the single RF tube is a cheap way to keep the local osc signal where it belongs . The extra tube was a great selling point too , back when numbers of tubes was supposed to be an indicator of radio superiority .
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Old 07-19-2015, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
To me , to be honest , I'd rather the sixth tube , if we're going from an AA5 to a six tube radio , be an additional IF amp stage rather than an RF amp . The additional IF stage would benefit selectivity but costs the extra IF transformer as well
Not necessarily, I have also seen a "cost effective" addition of an additional IF amp stage without adding another IF transformer, by simply RC coupling two tubes together between two transformers. IIRC, this trick was also used on some Philco models, causing some confusion as to the number of *actual* IF stages in the radio, similar to the confusion caused by adding a RF stage *without* using a 3 gang tuning capacitor. Check the schematics to be sure, especially on 40s-50s Philcos.

jr
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Old 07-19-2015, 09:11 PM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
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Not necessarily, I have also seen a "cost effective" addition of an additional IF amp stage without adding another IF transformer, by simply RC coupling two tubes together between two transformers. IIRC, this trick was also used on some Philco models, causing some confusion as to the number of *actual* IF stages in the radio, similar to the confusion caused by adding a RF stage *without* using a 3 gang tuning capacitor. Check the schematics to be sure, especially on 40s-50s Philcos.

jr
The first generation "hippo radios" used the same RF stage. The later ones used two IF stages instead and a 14AF7 osc mixer tube.
I have to consult the schematic again! I don't remember if it had another IF transformer. I know, a lot of companies didn't, just the RC coupling.
I have an Emerson that has four 6BJ6's, one for the osc, one for the mixer and two for the two IF's, RC coupled.
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Old 07-19-2015, 10:30 PM
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The first generation "hippo radios" used the same RF stage. The later ones used two IF stages instead and a 14AF7 osc mixer tube.
I have to consult the schematic again! I don't remember if it had another IF transformer. I know, a lot of companies didn't, just the RC coupling.
I have an Emerson that has four 6BJ6's, one for the osc, one for the mixer and two for the two IF's, RC coupled.
Bingo! One of my "hippos" has the RC coupled IF stage... two 7B7s with a 16K plate resistor on the first, then a 220 pf cap to the 150K grid resistor of the second. I have actually used a similar scheme once or twice when I could not find a suitable replacement IF transformer for one with an open primary or secondary. I thought that was pretty sleazy, but it worked ok.

Talk about sleazy, looks like Emerson really got the tube count up on that model.

jr
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