PAL to NTSC conversion

[Dude111]

I just got a PAL movie (ON THE EDGE OF INNOCENCE (1997)) and I took it to a friend who copied it IN MONO in the NTSC format and its excellent!!!

The video looks like im watching it over analogue cable!! (In fact its even better looking,doesnt seem as thin)

I love the message at the beggining where they want people to help them stop video piracy..... ".......This is a major problem in Australia please help us stop it"

Apparently this movie IS ONLY REALLY SUPPOSED TO BE SOLD IN AUSSIELAND!! (Not even New Zealand)

They list a toll free # - 1-800-251-996

I love the guys accent!!!

The movie itself is good but slightly fast (A smidge) but what I like about this copy is I CAN SEE THE WHOLE MOVIE!!!! (The One I have from Lifetime TV has stuff cut out)

I dont think this movie is on VHS in NTSC and I dont know why. (Its a TV movie but I know of other TV MOVIES that are in NTSC VHS)

[pgnl]

Originally Posted by Dude111

The movie itself is good but slightly fast (A smidge) but what I like about this copy is I CAN SEE THE WHOLE MOVIE!!!! (The One I have from Lifetime TV has stuff cut out)

My understanding is that when converting films to video in PAL/SECAM 50hz regions (ie not Brazil which was 60hz PAL-M), the film was routinely sped up from 24fps to 25fps, presumably to reduce flicker and other artifacts. Its one of the foibles that exists.

Obviously when converted from PAL to NTSC this speeding up would still be there.

Can’t say I ever noticed, but usually conversion creates other artifacts like jerky motion… but that would depend how the conversion was done.

Most modern TVs and VCRs in Europe and Australia/NZ from the early nineties onwards, could cope with NTSC anyway, so conversion became irrelevant.

Patrick, UK

[Dude111]

Ya the trailers @ the beggining and the Video piracy message are the right speed but the movie is so slightly faster.. Why do that and ruin the movie??

There is no jerkiness in my NTSC copy and the audio didnt really drop.. I have another PAL-NTSC tape I got (SONG OF THE SOUTH (1946)) and that one is right on.... NO SPEEDUP AT ALL......

Do you have any PAL movies that arent sped up at all???

[pgnl]

I can’t say i have ever noticed if a film has been sped up to be honest…

[Colly0410]

Read somewhere that people with perfect pitch (not me then, lol) can notice the 4% speed up of film music shown on PAL/SECAM & it annoys them, rest of us couldn't care less...

[old_tv_nut]

You do not need perfect pitch to detect the 4% speedup if you are familiar with the original. This was obvious watching the original Startrek series in Europe. The intro by Shatner sounded like he was regressing back into puberty compared to the correct speed.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by Dude111

I just got a PAL movie (ON THE EDGE OF INNOCENCE (1997)) and I took it to a friend who copied it IN MONO in the NTSC format and its excellent!!!

Do you know exactly what equipment your friend used, and what the settings were?

[Dude111]

No but im wondering if he dubbed it again and dubbed the NTSC FASTER it would be exactly right when I play it slower!! (On my VCR)

My friend hasnt ever seen this movie I dont think and he said to me "It sounds slightly fast" and he is right... Its barely there but its noticable.......

NTSC VCRs play at 24fps right? -- If he dubbed it at 25fps wouldnt it be right when played back at 24??

[old_tv_nut]

What exactly he could do with the speed depends on what exactly equipment he has. that's why I asked.

In normal NTSC, movies are recorded with 3/2 pulldown, (60 fields per second, with each film frame sent either in two frames or three), which averages out to 24 frames per second. In usual PAL, the movie frame rate is speeded up to 25 frames (two fields) per second to match the PAL video rate.

Going between PAL and NTSC cleanly is not an easy thing.

[Electronic M]

Originally Posted by Dude111

No but im wondering if he dubbed it again and dubbed the NTSC FASTER it would be exactly right when I play it slower!! (On my VCR)

My friend hasnt ever seen this movie I dont think and he said to me "It sounds slightly fast" and he is right... Its barely there but its noticable.......

NTSC VCRs play at 24fps right? -- If he dubbed it at 25fps wouldnt it be right when played back at 24??

NTSC VCRs run at 30 frames per second. Film runs a 24. In NTSC transmission of film, the film projector runs at 24FPS and the TV camera/VTR recording a video of it runs at 30FPS. The projector is synchronized to the camera such that 2-3 pull down that oldtvnut described occurs.

[Dude111]

It all sounds quite interesting and complex!!

[old_tv_nut]

It is conceivable to have a VHS player that slows the PAL tape down to 24 frames per second, then throws away one scan line out of every six, then does 3/2 pull down. This would give the correct audio pitch.

It is also conceivable to have a VHS player that runs at PAL rate of 25 frames per second, then throws away one scan line out of every six, then duplicates every fifth frame to get 30 frames per second. This would not correct the pitch, and would result in a motion jump five times per second.

Either of these processes requires an analog to digital conversion and back to analog to make the output be a continuous NTSC signal that an NTSC receiver can use. The picture content, however, has either 3/2 pulldown or 5 Hz motion jump.

I see some really cheap (under $15) converters advertised, and since they are not built into the PAL source and can't slow down the tape playback, I guess they must use the second method; but I don't really know what's in them.

[ppppenguin]

I don't think either of those conversion methods has ever been used. I suspect the cheap boxes simply do a PAL to NTSC transcode, leaving the frame and line rate well alone.

In PAL countries some VHS machines would play NTSC tapes at 525/60, transcoding the NTSC to PAL. This would work on most TVs at the time as the H scan rates are almost identical (15625 vs 15734Hz) and the V scan rates are close enough for most sets to lock. Though sometimes with reduced height.

[pgnl]

Originally Posted by ppppenguin

I don't think either of those conversion methods has ever been used. I suspect the cheap boxes simply do a PAL to NTSC transcode, leaving the frame and line rate well alone.

In PAL countries some VHS machines would play NTSC tapes at 525/60, transcoding the NTSC to PAL. This would work on most TVs at the time as the H scan rates are almost identical (15625 vs 15734Hz) and the V scan rates are close enough for most sets to lock. Though sometimes with reduced height.

There was also NTSC 4.43 which was used on mainly Middle Eastern machines as a workaround, i think this - apart from the speed and frame rate change to 525/60 - shifted the NTSC colour carrier from 3.58 to 4.43 to match the PAL colour carrier frequency.

As previously stated PAL 60 was a workaround to allow compatibility of NTSC tapes and DVDs with existing TVs. I remember i had a late 80s PAL only Philips portable TV. My DVD player at the time a Pioneer, could be switched to PAL60 and the resultant Region 1 DVD image was excellent.

Today virtually all European TVs can cope with every legacy standard via input (sometimes even via analogue - I have a Sony TV that has an NTSC-M tuner built in), I suspect that this is harder in the US where most Mainstream TVs are hard wired for NTSC/ATSC only. I am sure I will be corrected!

[old_tv_nut]

Yes, the sellers of the cheap converters don't say if they only work with an analog NTSC set that has enough vertical hold range to run at 50 Hz.

The question remains of what the original poster's friend used to convert PAL tape to NTSC tape.

https://smile.amazon.com/CIMPLE-CO-C...s%2C219&sr=8-5

The wording is confusing, but appears to claim the output could be re-recorded on tape or DVD:
"Conversion: Converts videos produced from other countries onto DVD disc, video tapes, or your local system -- DOES NOT CONVERT ACTUAL DVD OR VHS, ONLY OUTPUT SIGNAL"