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  #61  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jr_tech View Post
Very cool! thanks for posting. Two color looks better than I expected, but still might have been pretty hard to sell, even in the mid 60s. I looks as if the colors shown are basically "I axis" only, which could have simplified the circuitry somewhat. Was a 2 color system used in some countries, in the "early days" ?

jr
Two-color TV systems never went into use, although they were proposed. A Mexican inventor proposed a two-color system for Mexico:
http://www.earlytelevision.org/mexican_color.html.

Two color film, however, was used for a while - in one early form of Technicolor; also some two-color cartoons by others than Disney (who had three years of exclusive rights for use of three-color Technicolor in cartoons).
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  #62  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:30 AM
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I AM curious about the "intertel set".

It seems to have a form of "lollipop tube". PM claimed the set 'was coming soon". But--it took over a DECADE before a B/W lollipop tube was successful even--on the little sony sets!!

Does ANYONE out there know what happened?? did the two-color lollipop tube set prove to be too difficult for "real world" production or use?? Was there some sort of "reliability issue" discovered before production began?? I am SURE that the populace WOULD have embraced a truly portable color set in the late '60's even if the color was not "perfect"--as LONG AS it would "hold up" , not cost too much, be reasonably easy to use, and be "stable". After all--the first and 2nd gen LCD sets--BOTH B/w and color looked like $hit--but still sold somewhat decently in the '80's--enough to keep research to lcd sets today--which look MUCH better--and are MUCH cheaper.

Also--that LCD display that is being held in the RCA pix from 1966--looks to be a B/W display--was that REAL?? The case looked about the size of a SImpson 260 meter, adapted to fit the display. Bu that "test pattern looked--at least from the distance--MUCH better than pix of the B/W LCD sets from the mid 80's!!

Any thoughts??
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  #63  
Old 04-16-2012, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by old_tv_nut View Post
I don't see how. The glass that carries the phosphors has only two sides, and the idea is to have two beams approaching the opposite sides through vacuum.
Use one more screen with it's own deflection, and make one of the two screens semi-transparent so the two screens can be watched at the same time adding the primaries of each to make a tricolor image.

The two color one already had a semi-transparent screen so one could probably add another tube behind it with a third phosphor color to get full color with out any major modification.

Heck one could probably double up two bi-color tubes one having two primaries and the other having the third primary plus a white monochrome phosphor for improved brightness/simplified circuits.
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  #64  
Old 04-16-2012, 04:28 PM
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...did the two-color lollipop tube set prove to be too difficult for "real world" production or use?? Was there some sort of "reliability issue" discovered before production began?? Any thoughts??
If introduced by a small company, probably just lack of financial mass to keep the company going until it could become profitable. Development and promotion of new technology is seldom so smooth that it doesn't require at least double the time and money originally estimated (or more). A large company that already has income from existing product can support this kind of delay (although it may not choose to do so), but a startup depends on attracting patient (and maybe repeated) investment.
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  #65  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:22 PM
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I remember reading that RCA had a 2-color system that they developed while struggling w/the NTSC system... The story goes that they were gonna demonstrate it in Washington in Sept 1949... There were 2 huge receivers, apparently they were hybrid color wheel/CRT technology. It was DREADFULLY hot, the guy who was in charge was drenched w/sweat, they started the demonstration, & 1st one, then the other receiver failed, w/a large "BANG !" each.
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  #66  
Old 04-16-2012, 07:42 PM
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Are you sure it was an RCA demonstration? I'm quite sure they didn't do any color wheel development whatsoever, at least in the postwar period, much less attempt to demonstrate such in 1949.
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  #67  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:01 PM
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Pretty sure it was-It was in that EXCELLENT book, "Behind the Tube", which gave an insider's look at the early days of TV from someone who was there. Naturally, I've misplaced it-Or I'd go look it up & fill in the blanks
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  #68  
Old 04-17-2012, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rca2000 View Post

Also--that LCD display that is being held in the RCA pix from 1966--looks to be a B/W display--was that REAL?? The case looked about the size of a SImpson 260 meter, adapted to fit the display. Bu that "test pattern looked--at least from the distance--MUCH better than pix of the B/W LCD sets from the mid 80's!!

Any thoughts??
I know that the test pattern is real. The photo is part of the Sarnoff library. There is a book out by Costallano, one of the original engineers on Hielmeier's team at RCA. Hielmeier discovered 3 electro-optic effects in liquid crystals in 1962 and he put together a team and they worked in secret. That photo was taken in 1966 outside RCA's Princeton labs. They revealed their secret LCD project in May, 1968 to the world and demoed various LCD panels. I have seen photos of that demo. RCA obtained first patents on LCD and unfortunately did nothing with it. We all know what happened next, the Japanese commercialized LCD. The story goes within RCA circles at the time, that they did not want LCD to compete with their CRT division according to Costellano's book.

The subject of this tread was, could a 1961 hand held TV exist. We now know that RCA was still tinkering with it in 1963 at the time Hielmeirs team was developing LCD displays and we know that others were working on flat TV's like the flat two color CRT in 1966. The Popular Science article mentions the engineers name and I did some research on him. I found that he was awarded several patents for 3 and 4 color flat displays. The answer to what happened to this two color prototype may be available by doing a IEEE technical paper search.

Here is a another RCA mock up from 1965. You get the feeling this was for the LCD displays they were developing behind the scene. http://www.visions4.net/journal/time...k-up-1965-525/
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Last edited by etype2; 04-17-2012 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Add info
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  #69  
Old 09-08-2012, 04:59 PM
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One more tiny set:

Because this 29 transistor, 14 diode receiver was designed and built in 1964, it does not use integrated circuits. It weighs only 12 1/2 ounces and the entire unit occupies just 1.2 cubic inches of space. The earphone cord acts as the antenna. This television was featured in the October, 1967 issue of Popular Electronics magazine. See photos below.

I have other photos showing an actual Black and white image on the screen.


http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-c...Tim-525-WP.jpg

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-c...-1a-525-WP.jpg
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Last edited by etype2; 09-08-2012 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Links not showing
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  #70  
Old 09-08-2012, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by etype2 View Post
One more tiny set:

Because this 29 transistor, 14 diode receiver was designed and built in 1964, it does not use integrated circuits. It weighs only 12 1/2 ounces and the entire unit occupies just 1.2 cubic inches of space. The earphone cord acts as the antenna. This television was featured in the October, 1967 issue of Popular Electronics magazine. See photos below.

I have other photos showing an actual Black and white image on the screen.


http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-c...Tim-525-WP.jpg

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-c...-1a-525-WP.jpg
I think this set has been mentioned here before.
It was a black and white set. It worked, but had some shortcuts, such as, the channel was permanently tuned to one Chicago station and could not be changed from the outside. Still, it made for interesting press copy.
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  #71  
Old 03-31-2017, 04:04 PM
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Reserrecting this old tread. Found this recently, a working two sided flat screen television on display at a Japan expo in 1967, one year after the Popular Science cover photo and discussed in this thread and 15 years prior to the first Sony flat Watchman CRT. The film is in black and white, but the two sided display could have been in color. The ID plate looks like Sony or Sharp. See the video below.

http://media.gettyimages.com/videos/...d177080116?p=1
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Last edited by etype2; 03-31-2017 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Bad url
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  #72  
Old 03-31-2017, 04:39 PM
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It could have been color, but very unlikely, as convergence of electron beams while bending them would have been practically impossible - plus, there can't possibly be a shadow mask, or it would prevent the beam from hitting the back side. I wonder if the claim of two screens with the beam bouncing from one to the other is a mistake. Much more likely to be a non-aluminized glass plate. The scene changes just as the camera moves from front to back, so you can't see if the image is reversed. Maybe someone who reads Japanese can tell us if the text is backwards.

Edit - look carefully - the image on the front screen is at the surface, while the image at the back is recessed by the depth of the device. This appears to be a single transparent plate.
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  #73  
Old 03-31-2017, 04:51 PM
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I don't think ANYBODY ever developed a flat COLOR CRT.Time ran out on 'em. And I doubt now one will ever be developed. I REALLY do wish those dreadful flat-screen thingies had NEVER been developed...CRTs 4Evah...(grin)
Indeed there WERE flat-screen color CRT tubes, used in almost all CRT sets in the last 10 years of CRT televisions, but they were flat-face tubes that still had a neck out back. I have a 36" Sony HD Flat Screen CRT TV set, and a few Flat screen CRT computer monitors. But they still are boxy because of the need for the neck of the tube in back.
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  #74  
Old 03-31-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Phototone View Post
Indeed there WERE flat-screen color CRT tubes, used in almost all CRT sets in the last 10 years of CRT televisions, but they were flat-face tubes that still had a neck out back. I have a 36" Sony HD Flat Screen CRT TV set, and a few Flat screen CRT computer monitors. But they still are boxy because of the need for the neck of the tube in back.
We are really talking about "pancake" tubes that do not have the gun in the rear, not tubes that just have a flat faceplate:

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread...highlight=flat

jr
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  #75  
Old 03-31-2017, 07:49 PM
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My guess is the display in the video is designed along the lines of the two color CRT shown in the 1966 magazine shown in this thread.



Speculation:

Sony was know to be experimenting with Index beam televisions in the 70's. Maybe as early as 1967? I read they made a 30 inch index beam prototype set.

Two Watchman style CRT's could have been placed back to back in that box.

Two Index beam style color CRT's could have been placed back to back in that box in the video.

The last photo is a prototype type 8 inch color CRT from Sony. Infromation was published 1968. The other photos show the Sanyo and Sony index beam configuration.

In the video, you can see a lot of reflections. I think I see two different images displayed at the same time, but it's hard to say for sure.

Edit: To correct. From my research material, "Sony has been involved in the development of beam index CRTs since the Chromatron era and has started serious commercialization since the 1970s”.
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Last edited by etype2; 03-31-2017 at 11:09 PM.
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