Do you still use your old radios

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by wa2ise

I have a very old pre WW2 AM-FM radio. Emerson 460. The FM is on 41 to 50 MHz. This was the original American FM broadcast band, but this was changed to the modern 88 to 108MHz FM band in 1945. Something about making room for TV channels, but in reality RCA wanted FM to die to avoid competition for its new product: television. More details at my web page http://www.geocities.com/wa2ise/radios/fm45.html

Next weekend, as FM will have its 75th annerversary, there will be a special broadcast on 42.8MHz in the New York City area to celebrate. Using Major Armstrong's tower in Alpine NJ. Edwin Armstrong invented/developed FM.

You can still hear things like baby monitors and the like on the 41-50 MHz range of your Emerson 460, and all other prewar FM radios which had this band. The tuning range of most of these radios goes a little above and below what the tuning dial would have you believe (the actual tuning range is maybe 39-51 MHz or something like that), so you could probably even hear ham radio activity at the low end of the six-meter band if there is any in your area. If you can fudge the high end of the dial on your set so that it will tune to 52-54 MHz you might be able to hear 6m FM repeaters, again if there are such near you (6 meter FM was pretty much overshadowed by similar repeaters on 2m in the late '60s and beyond; now, 6m FM is likely all but dead).

I certainly hope you were kidding when you said that RCA was trying to kill off FM radio, or at least wished it were dead. I do know that the 44-50 MHz range, once assigned to television as channel 1 (many early postwar sets had this channel on a 13-position tuner), was eventually reassigned and is now the hams' 6-meter band (after a bit of realignment of frequency bands after the war). But I never dreamed that RCA was actually hoping the idea of FM radio broadcasting would be a passing fancy and would fade away eventually. If so, they were in for one heck of a surprise (and disappointment, no doubt) when FM on the then-new 88-108 MHz band became the huge success it is today. Stereo FM (no one ever calls it multiplex anymore, although that is the technical term for the standard), SCA, and now a new thing called high-definition digital FM (there is exactly one[!] such station in Cleveland)--the medium is nothing like it was when Armstrong pioneered the system in 1947. Now, if FM broadcasters would start carrying something other than noise on their stations (which is what a lot of modern rock music is these days), the medium could again be a vehicle for good-music broadcasting, which is probably what Armstrong envisioned FM radio to be in the first place. It is too bad, IMO, that FM stations use easy listening only as a way to get the station on the air initially; this automated format lasts maybe a few weeks or months, then another broadcasting company buys the station and boom--out goes the automated beautiful music and in come loudmouth DJs and so-called "music" by rock groups no one under the age of 18 has ever heard of. Cleveland lost three of its best FM easy-listening stations this way in the last twenty-five years or so (with the last one going rock just 15 years ago), so now almost every station in the city is rock or some variation of it. Hardly what Mr. Armstrong had in mind.

[peverett]

According to a PBS show that I watched, RCA was not trying to kill off FM, just Armstrong's FM business.

They even designed the ratio detector to get around Armstrong patents. However, this did not work forever as the US Supreme court ruled that they and most other companys violated his patents and had to pay his widow (he had committed suicide-partly because of his fight with RCA) quite a sum of money.

The only major manufacturer that I am aware of that did not violate his patents was Zenith. I have great respect for the leaders of that corporation at that time. I have only disgust for the leaders of the other electronic companies, especially RCA. Sarnoff was truly what FDR had in mind when he said that most business leaders were "Atilla the Huns in suits".

[bgadow]

Wow, for once I wish I was close enough to NYC to hear that! I have a couple prewar FM sets, though neither is working. (well, they might be, I never try the old ones like that without recapping)

[Jeffhs]

My five Zenith radios don't see a lot of use, as there isn't that much to listen to on AM or FM radio in my area. Plenty of stations (the AM is full of stations at night; I like listening to an all-news station in Philadelphia [KYW 1060] for national news), but the FMs are mostly rock, country and one talk station (the last is one I don't get where I live now, though I did hear it very well at my former home); I listened quite a bit to NPR when the war in Iraq first started and was beginning to heat up, but lately I don't have much to do with anything below 92 MHz. I mostly listen to my own cassettes and CDs, in addition to two Internet radio stations (Radio365 and RealOldies 1690, the latter being the Internet webcast of an oldies station in suburban Chicago) and several digital cable music channels. I'd use my Zenith TransOceanic Royal 1000-1 more than I do if it were not for the facts that 1) I only have two places in my apartment I can plug the wall-wart adapter into (an outlet in my kitchen and one behind the desk with my amateur radio gear). The former isn't really the best place in the world to be using anything powered by electricity even though the outlets are protected by GFCIs; the latter is in my bedroom, and since I can't have my radios on very loud here it is very difficult to hear it anyplace else in the apartment when on, 2) I haven't gotten around to getting new batteries for it yet. When I do use that radio or my smaller Zenith R-70, or even my Zenith K-731 or my 1951 H-511Y, I listen to a big-band/standards station from Toronto. I also have a Zenith H-480W AM/FM stereo clock radio which I bought new in 1980; it works on AM but is very weak on FM ever since I cleaned the slide controls (volume, tone, balance) with contact cleaner (RadioShack brand, not Deoxit--I don't really know where to find the latter; I live in a small town with nothing in the way of electronics stores except a Radio Shack in the next town, five miles from here--there are no large cities, only small towns for the most part, in my area). Some of the spray must have gotten into the FM RF amp or some early signal stage and shorted a transistor or worse, as the FM is extremely weak (can barely hear it with the volume full on, though the stations are there).

[Randy Bassham]

42-50 Mhz is Low Band VHF, several states still use it for their Highway Patrol communication. I'm a Field Engineer for Missouri and my transmitters are on 42.380, 42.920 and 42.940. It is possible to hear these on radios with the old FM band however the volume will be low because we are using narrow band modulation.

And I use my old radios alot, especially the ones with FM, I keep a Zenith 845 beside my recliner and play it often for extended periods of time. The Zenith has all the original caps including the filters and it still has the selenium rectifier inplace. I use my Magnavox Stereo Concert Grand for hours on end, in the winter the 16 6V6's and 4 5U4's keep my Den warm. I've got my Directv receiver hooked up to it and my wife sometimes plays it all day long while I'm at work and we just keep it on when I get home, I just turn it up louder than she does.....

[blue_lateral]

I use my Magnavox Stereo Concert Grand for hours on end, in the winter the 16 6V6's and 4 5U4's keep my Den warm.

I'd sure like to see pictures of this unit, especially inside. Do you have any?

John

[Randy Bassham]

I've not taken any photos of it since I got it home, here's some of it before I bought it. I'll try to take a few of it with the back off asap....

[Charlie]

Man... that Maggie looks like it's pumping the tunes out thru some big-ass speakers! If that thing is using 16 6V6's, it must really rock!

[blue_lateral]

Too cool! Does it sound as good as it looks?

John

Some folks are into old radios for the look, others to re-live/honor the past. A few are into it for the sound. As one acquires and listens to tube radios and understands some of the science behind the tube vs. transistor sound disparity, one knows how to find radios that sound better than new radios.

Yes, some some things were made better in the past. More money was spent in their construction. Homes, cars, furniture...and old radios are often included in this list. Technology progresses but often the quality of workmanship is left out in the pursuit of higher profits and built-in obsolescence.

Some awesome table tube sets and wood consoles were made in the late fifties/early sixties. For example, a good '59 Panasonic K-782 with the wood case has a very rich sound and reproduces vocal audio frequencies better than many a BOSE speakered high end tuner sold today. This can be attributed to the way waves are treated by tubes versus transistors and the sweet design of a 12AJ7 triode-heptode tube. The best speakers in the world are not worth much if the signal that goes into them isn't as rich and diverse as it should be.

Almost any am/fm tube radio table set in working order will outperform any of the cheapy cd players/cassette/tuner systems sold mass-market these days.

And, as all folks with wood consoles or boat anchors know, they get awesome bass response from a tube console. Combined with rich vocals you have the best tool for reproducing music.

Nothing is sweeter on the ears than an excellent stereophonic tube console from the 59-63 era. Refresh the speakers, any necessary tubes, etcetera and get it back in beautiful shape and let the magic begin! That fine wood can be refinished & lacquered to look like a million bucks is just an added bonus!

I see old radios as quality furniture, rather than decoration, and furniture is meant to be used and enjoyed.

Not that there's anything wrong with staring at an old radio on a shelf or collecting them the way one might collect stamps, but I prefer finding the nice ones and <I>listening</I> to them.

[compucat]

I restore my sets with the intent to provide "Everyday Reliability". I use my sets regularly and they seldom need repair if I do the job right the first time. I have a few that spend more time on the shelf simply because there are only so many places in the house to put them in daily service. Even the shelf dwellers are fully dependable and get occasional use. I love the sound, the glow of the tubes, the RF performance, lighted dials, and the beautiful sculptured Bakelite cabinets. These sets are things of sheer beauty whether on or off. Being able to use them everyday is an added bonus. My regular daily users are as follows:

GE Model 202 6 tube AM (great sound, very sensitive)
Sparton 5W?? 5 tube (great looking, good performance)
Silvertone Metal Midget 4 tube (bedside table radio)
Hallicrafters S-53A 8 tube shortwave (very sensitive, built like a tank, way cool)

I have a Philco big Bakelite AM/SW table model Model 48-464 I think that is going into the livingroom once it is finished.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by TryHiFi

Some awesome table tube sets and wood consoles were made in the late fifties/early sixties.

Almost any am/fm tube radio table set in working order will outperform any of the cheapy cd players/cassette/tuner systems sold mass-market these days.

Zenith made some great table radios from the '59-'63 era. I have one, a Zenith K-731. It's in a walnut wood cabinet and has a two-way speaker system--a 5x7 oval speaker for lows/midrange and a 3" electrostatic tweeter, the latter driven directly from the plate of the 35C5 output tube, for the highs. Needless to say, it sounds great. The bass response is incredible for a table model; in fact, I'm a little afraid to set the tone control to full bass for fear of damaging the main speaker. I usually set it to midrange and leave it there; that's where my ears tell me it sounds the best.

I have also read reports here on AK that Zenith's C-845 table model also has incredible sound quality for a table set. Several people here have these little sets and seem to like them a lot; I can understand why. These sets were made for high fidelity (that "high fidelity" script logotype on the front panel isn't just an advertising slogan--Zenith obviously meant it, in spades).

I often wonder, though, why Zenith did not include a phonograph input on the K-731, but did put one on the C845. The '731 is a great-sounding radio and, IMHO, would work well as a phono amplifier. I've never heard a C-845 playing, but I'd think it sounds every bit as good as the '731. Are the audio stages in the C-845 that much better than those in the '731? I would think, since the C-845 has two ordinary cone-type speakers and the K-731 has an oval 5x7 and an electrostatic tweeter, that the latter would work every bit as well as a phono amp as would the '845.


I would love to have a nice wood console stereo, such as an older Zenith (I like anything in walnut or other dark wood), but, unfortunately, my apartment is far too small. Oh well. That's why I got my Zenith 731 on ebay a couple years ago; I liked the looks of the cabinet and, since I always wanted a console, this radio is about the closest I'll come to having one. When the set arrived here, I plugged it in, turned it on, and it worked right out of the shipping box. The sound was and still is excellent. I am still amazed I did not have to do anything to it (new caps, etc.) after I got it--as I said, it played as soon as I powered it up, and the cabinet had almost no damage at all (save for a couple tiny wear spots on the front, above the speakers; one can hardly see them unless he/she looks for them). This set is the pride of my entire Zenith collection; you can be sure I'll hold on to it a long time. The one thing I know I should do but haven't, yet, is replace the selenium B+ rectifier. That's a project for some time in the future; I'm in no hurry, since the radio sounds great at this point ("if it ain't broke, don't fix it").

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

<snip>

I have also read reports here on AK that Zenith's C-845 table model also has incredible sound quality for a table set. Several people here have these little sets and seem to like them a lot; I can understand why. These sets were made for high fidelity (that "high fidelity" script logotype on the front panel isn't just an advertising slogan--Zenith obviously meant it, in spades).

<snip>

I have one on my desk at work and use it regularly in the afternoon (usually from 4pm on, when enough people have left for the day that it won't disturb them). It does sound great, and has been reliable for almost three years of regular service. I have a Zenith AM/FM alarm clock/radio at home that also gets used regularly (the clock part still keeps perfect time).

I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to extend the life of the clock mechanism. As far as I can tell, there was no provision for lubrication as there would be for wind-up mechanical clocks. I guess that as long as it runs, I'll continue to enjoy it and wake up to genuine tube radio sound.




Joe

[Randy Bassham]

Finally got a pix of the Concert Grand from the back....42 tubes in total. Each amp is Bi Amped using 6 6V6's to drive the Bass Woofers and 2 6V6's to drive the Horns. This is an example of what happens when the bean counters don't pay attention to what the engineers are doing....

[peverett]

Your electric bill must double when this is turned on! That is a lot of tubes for one set.

Mid to late 1960s color TVs only had 27 or so.

Bet it sounds great though.