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Old 01-08-2017, 02:46 PM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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British use of high band.

High band (band 3) in Britain is channels 6 to 13. ITV started in late 1955 on channel 9 broadcasting from Croydon to the London area. Then in 1956 Litchfield (near Birmingham) on ch 8 fired up for the English midlands, Winter Hill ch 9 for north west England & Emley Moor ch 10 for Yorkshire. Then in the late 1950's Black Hill fired up on ch 10 for central Scotland, Chillerton Down on ch 11 for Southern England, St Hillery ch 10 for South Wales/West of England, Black Mountain ch 9 for Northern Ireland, Mendalsham ch 11 for East England, Burnhope ch 8 for north east England, Caldbeck ch11 for Borders area, plus others. Channels 6,7,12 & 13 were not used till the early/mid 1960's so there was a lot of channel reuse of 8,9,10 & 11. In 1964 (I think) the BBC started to use High band as low band was saturated, 1'st BBC high band was Winter Hill ch 12 for north west England, Wenvoe ch 13 for South wales, Belmont ch 13 for Lincolnshire, Caldbeck ch 6 for south east Scotland, Moel-Y-Parc ch 6 for north Wales...

High band is now used for digital radio using DAB & DAB+ systems...
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colly0410 View Post
...

High band is now used for digital radio using DAB & DAB+ systems...
Last week I picked up at a Goodwill thrift shop a Colourstream Internet, DAB and analog FM receiver. Took a while to convince it to use the wired ethernet connection for Internet access, but it works well now for Internet streaming and analog FM reception. Of course, here in New Jersey, USA it doesn't hear anything on DAB mode. According to the specs, this DAB band runs from 174 to around 230MHz, which is mostly our channels 7 thru 13 and then a little more. I suppose it is possible to have a few DAB transmitters using empty TV channels here, but I doubt that would ever happen.

This receiver requires 230VAC but we do have 250VAC (a pair of 120VAC's) here in the USA, though at 60Hz. This radio is happy on 60Hz, even though it states 50Hz. Aside from record players and clocks, transformers are very happy on 60Hz even though they are rated for 50Hz.
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:03 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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The BBC transmit digital radio as a single frequency network on ch 12B (225.648 MHz) from hundreds of transmitters all over the country, there are stations on digital you you cant get on AM or FM. All BBC & most commercial national radio stations are also carried on the Digital TV transmitters as sub-channels. (all TV is at UHF) I have audio leads from my Freeview+ digital-box to my hi-fi for fantastic quality music on the oldies stations...
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:31 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is online now
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Originally Posted by Colly0410 View Post
High band (band 3) in Britain is channels 6 to 13. ITV started in late 1955 on channel 9 broadcasting from Croydon to the London area. Then in 1956 Litchfield (near Birmingham) on ch 8 fired up for the English midlands, Winter Hill ch 9 for north west England & Emley Moor ch 10 for Yorkshire. Then in the late 1950's Black Hill fired up on ch 10 for central Scotland, Chillerton Down on ch 11 for Southern England, St Hillery ch 10 for South Wales/West of England, Black Mountain ch 9 for Northern Ireland, Mendalsham ch 11 for East England, Burnhope ch 8 for north east England, Caldbeck ch11 for Borders area, plus others. Channels 6,7,12 & 13 were not used till the early/mid 1960's so there was a lot of channel reuse of 8,9,10 & 11. In 1964 (I think) the BBC started to use High band as low band was saturated, 1'st BBC high band was Winter Hill ch 12 for north west England, Wenvoe ch 13 for South wales, Belmont ch 13 for Lincolnshire, Caldbeck ch 6 for south east Scotland, Moel-Y-Parc ch 6 for north Wales...

High band is now used for digital radio using DAB & DAB+ systems...
How did the British high band compare with the NTSC high band, channels 7-13? In the US, channel 6 was part of the low band. There was a lot of space between channels 6 & 7.
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:43 PM
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The BBC transmit digital radio as a single frequency network on ch 12B (225.648 MHz) ...
In the USA we hams have a band from 222 to 225MHz, and another at 219-220 MHz as secondary use. But you have a band at 70MHz, which we don't.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:15 AM
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Robert Grant Robert Grant is offline
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British monochrome analog television used only 405 scanning lines and only 25 frames per second, resulting in only 10,125 lines transmitted per second (compared with 15,750 or 15,734.2xx per second for USA analog television). This meant that the British system only needed 5MHz for a television channel instead of America's 6MHz, and yet had more horizontal resolution than American television

This allowed the UK to place eight highband channels 6 through 13 in Band III with two MHz left over.

Note that Britain's five Band I channels ended at 68MHz and that they never had Band II over-the-air television at all.

Unusual about UK television is that it has been through not one, but two, incompatible transitions.

From 1964 to 1985, they had the 405-line VHF to 625 line UHF transition, including television sets in the UK that were dual standard sets, which switched from positive modulation 405-line video with AM audio and -3.5 MHz audio offset, to negative modulation 625-line video with FM audio and +6MHz offset when the user switched from VHF (BBC1 and ITV) to UHF (BBC2).

From November 1969, UHF 625 line transmissions of BBC1 and ITV were added, so television sets made from about 1970 onward had no 405, positive picture detection, AM audio, nor VHF tuner.

The second transition was done like everywhere else in the world. UHF Digital transmitters were shoehorned among UHF analog transmitters with the latter shut down years later and some improvements made to the digital transmitters later.

Last edited by Robert Grant; 01-13-2017 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:45 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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From 1964 to 1985, they had the 405-line VHF to 625 line UHF transition, including television sets in the UK that were dual standard sets that switched from positive modulation with AM audio and -3.5 MHz audio offset with 405 lines to negative modulation with FM audio and +6MHz offset with 625 lines when the user switched from VHF (BBC1 and ITV) to UHF (BBC2).

From November 1969, UHF 625 line transmissions of BBC1 and ITV were added, so tellies from 1970 on, so tellies from 1970 onward had no 405, positive picture detection, AM audio, nor VHF tuner.
Some dual standard sets were still being used into the 1980's, they were so complicated though that they were scraped as they were too difficult to mend when they went wrong. I've got a 625 lines UHF only set from 1971 that still works when fed from a digital box UHF RF output.

The last 405 lines VHF only sets were sold in 1968/9, 5/6 years after 625 started, mind you the 405 lines VHF transmitters carried on broadcasting till the 1980's, the last ones shutting down on 31 Jan 1985, but almost everyone was then on 625 lines colour at UHF & no one noticed, there's a you tube video of it. Colour was never broadcast on 405 VHF. BBC2 fired up with colour in 1967 on 625 UHF, & BBC1 & ITV fired up in colour in November 1969, also on 625 UHF. All Antenna TV is now digital at UHF only..
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:53 PM
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Thanx for this interesting news report!

TV-collector
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Scotty, beam me up, there is no more 4/3 Television and AM radio in Germany!
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:21 PM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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When I was based in Munster-Lager West Germany with the British Army I hired a TV that'd work on European system B/G & English system I that was used by British Forces Broadcasting System: It had a button on the side to change it over, if you set it to the wrong system the sound was all distorted..
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Old 05-29-2017, 03:46 PM
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@ Colly0410

I am living in an area where BFBS (later called SSVC) Television was aired.
They showed "Top of the Pops", Blue Peter, family greetings, BBC and ITN news.

A no-name german company offered a small assy for DM 30,- (15,- Euros) which
could be easy connected with most of all TVs (tube and solid state!).
12 Volts DC and the remove of the coupling cap between video out
and audio-RF-in gives a great sound.
No switch!
Btw., the same company offered a similiar assy for the US-forces Television
(AFN - American Forces Network).
These units were sold in the shops in military bases. But not only there.

The power of these transmitters (UHF only) from the forces was very reduced
to the areas, where soldiers and their families lived.

The upcoming of low-price satellite television at the end of the eighties for wide
consumer fields was the end of these little stations with their local
news and greeting programs.

Best regards,
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Last edited by TV-collector; 05-29-2017 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 05:07 PM
Adlershof Adlershof is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colly0410 View Post
ind you the 405 lines VHF transmitters carried on broadcasting till the 1980's, the last ones shutting down on 31 Jan 1985, but almost everyone was then on 625 lines colour at UHF & no one noticed, there's a you tube video of it.
Indeed: The person, with her face never appearing in vision, waves into the camera and then turns off the 405 lines set, so the actual shut-down was not captured anymore


The BFBS problem was well known in Berlin back then. How did this UK-only system with sound on +5.996 MHz (that's how literature defines it) arise, this oddball in between B/G and D/K?

These armed forces transmitters survived much beyond the eighties. In the case of AFN the last ones disappeared only a few years ago, when anything else was already gone. Closure of the last BFBS TV transmitters in Germany was in 2008.

What disappeared much earlier were of course the Russian and French transmitters. They carried SECAM video in B/G, so no hassle with D/K or even the completely incompatible L norm here.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:52 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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Indeed:

The BFBS problem was well known in Berlin back then. How did this UK-only system with sound on +5.996 MHz (that's how literature defines it) arise, this oddball in between B/G and D/K?

.
Read in a TV mag that the reason Englands 625 system I chose +5.996 (originally +6 MHz) was so they could extend the video bandwidth up to 5.5 MHz as they didn't think the B/G bandwidth of 5 MHz was enough, & they didn't choose the 6 MHz video bandwidth of D/K as they wanted a vestigial sideband of -1.25 MHz for some reason. (D/K uses 0.75 MHz) Of course there could be a bit of protectionism thrown in as well so people couldn't just import European system B/G TV sets into England & they'd work OK. So they made the system just a little bit different to mess things up for Mr & Mrs Public. Just my cynical 10 cents worth..
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:18 AM
Colly0410 Colly0410 is offline
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I bought one one of the last CRT analog only TV's on sale in England in 2002, it could receive systems B/G/I/D/K in PAL/SECAM/NTSC 4.43 & it tuned from VHF New Zealand channel 1 (45 MHz) up to UHF channel 69 with no breaks. (855.25 MHz) The only 625 country it wouldn't have worked in was France as they used system L. I gave it away last year as we were given 2 LCD TV's & Wife wanted rid of it. She let me keep my Mams old still working TV from 1972..
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