"Restoration" vs "Preservation" vs "?" - Page 2 - Videokarma.org TV - Video

bgadow · #16 01-16-2014, 09:57 PM

In the same way the unbuilt Heathkits command a premium price, someday "virgin" TV's and radios will be looked at the same way. I get a lot of enjoyment out of taking something dead and bringing it back to life. If you look at my collection you'll see very little in mint condition. It's the same with the old cars I own: I would rather have something a little tattered that I can use whenever I want than to have something I can just stand back and look at. But I do respect those who prefer the other way.

Phil Nelson · #17 01-17-2014, 12:11 AM

I have to admit, I'll always pay a premium for an unspoiled set versus one that has been tinkered with (or even competently restored) by someone else. For me, the challenge is all in the restoration. I lose interest pretty quickly after that's done. Likewise, I would never buy a set that was fully restored by someone else (dang -- they got all the fun!).

Which makes me a sort of hypocrite, I guess. I want the unspoiled goodies for myself, and then I promptly destroy the set's originality (from a preservationist viewpoint) by restoring the electronics and sometimes the cabinet. My rationalization is that most of my stuff is not especially rare or valuable, so nothing precious is lost if I make it work.

I do understand and appreciate the preservationist ethic. Elli Buk's collections were auctioned off last year, and I'll bet most of the buyers were delighted that he had left those many interesting objects in the same condition as when he got them.

I don't own any pre-war TVs (or the equivalent class of radio). If I ran across something like that, I'd certainly give the question some serious thought. I do own a couple of radios that I have decided not to touch at all, except for gentle cleaning. They don't have great monetary value, but they're worth more to me if I leave them alone.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Tubejunke · #18 01-17-2014, 01:03 AM

Perhaps we should start a thread that helps to define exactly what sets are "historically significant" so that we are careful not to damage them by making them do what they were made to do in the first place. Here's my $.02; it doesn't matter if you wind up with a "pre-war" or a "post war"; a "roundie" or a lowly 21" common 50s rectangular. Frankly, I think the latter is nearly as significant as the fore-mentioned. Indeed, to most people TV is thought to have not existed before the "war", but we know different and the fact that there are examples out there that prove that the technology and manufacturing was there does make those few sets a more defined signifigance.

I have been messing with vintage electronics for about 30 years and I have never seen a "pre-war" set. So really significance is a decision and a perception of the individual who finds a set and bears the desire and skill set necessary to make it do what it was designed to do. If it doesn't do that, then it is a bunch of wood and metal that has no use. I'm not saying that all sets must work to be worth having. If you are like me, then you always have something sitting around waiting for service. I have a collection, but I am not a collector. I don't care for the attitudes that come with being a "collector." Just the whole mine is more valuable or "significant" than yours for a list of reasons just takes the fun out of it I think.

To stay more on topic though, I say it's both restoration AND preservation, and normally in that order. The degree of each is up to the individual. I personally love the smaller components that we have today and have found that in many cases I can hard wire in each piece right under that chassis where nobody is ever going to see them. I have never re-stuffed a cap, but I might like to try it on a few of my really old radios. I find radio to be a better candidate for a completely original in every way fix. A TV to me is about the viewing (and listening) experience, and if you can achieve a reasonable duplication of its original design purpose then you are done. After that it is time to enjoy watching it and polishing it up. I think it is fun to pop the back off and blow the dust out from time to time; maybe clean some tube sockets and glass.

Wow, with all this being said I just realized that my post war 2002 Magnavox playing tonight and every night without fail is pretty darned significant! Not a lot of history though.........

peter scott · #19 01-17-2014, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vts1134

The following letter from Michael Bennett-Levy is posted on the Early Television Foundtation's website. It talks directly to the topic at hand.

Pre- war tubes - especially the small ones suffer quite quickly from ion burn and replacement tubes are not plentiful to put it mildly. A set may work today with an acceptable brightness but then the set is 'only' sixty something years old and has probably not been used for fifty or more of them. What about when you and I are dead in another hundred years? What will be the historical importance of a pre-war TV set with many components changed and a burned out tube? Just as a piece of furniture design?

I bought my 1937 mirror lid set 35 years ago and whilst I've maintained it in working order for most of that time I have tended not to operate more than about once or twice a year and then for probably less than one hour at a time so I think that further deterioration of its 12" CRT over the next 100 years is unlikely to be very noticeable if its future owners treat it likewise.

It does exhibit some ion burn but you wouldn't notice it with the set switched off. As to components, it had quite a few 1940/50s replacements when I bought it and I've tried to replace these with genuine 30s resistors of correct style and I created replica capacitors to replace the "modern" nasties. I have retained the original EHT transformer winding but used its core for my replacement transformer.

If I possessed an almost unrepaired/unrestored example I think I would not want to do anything to it but find a suitable museum for it to live in.

Peter

cwmoser · #20 01-17-2014, 06:15 AM

Personally I just don't find old brown wax capacitors visually appealing.
Instead, a recapped chassis with the smaller orange and yellow capacitors
I find more appealing and it opens up the chassis by makeing it look less crowded.
When we as enthusists recap a chassis, I think we
become part of the History and our craftsmanship will show.

I advocate yet another criteria that we enhance our craftsmanship when
we do recap a chassis -- say utilize Spaghetti Tubing on all replaced capacitors,
stuff Electrolytic cans, use cloth covered wire when we rewire, and add safety
incorporating fuses and X1/Y2 capacitors.

50 or so years from now, our work restoring these radios might be studied - and preserved too.

Carl

peter scott · #21 01-17-2014, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vts1134

The following letter from Michael Bennett-Levy is posted on the Early Television Foundtation's website. It talks directly to the topic at hand.

Pre- war tubes - especially the small ones suffer quite quickly from ion burn and replacement tubes are not plentiful to put it mildly. A set may work today with an acceptable brightness but then the set is 'only' sixty something years old and has probably not been used for fifty or more of them. What about when you and I are dead in another hundred years? What will be the historical importance of a pre-war TV set with many components changed and a burned out tube? Just as a piece of furniture design?

I bought my 1937 mirror lid set 35 years ago and whilst I've maintained it in working order for most of that time I have tended not to operate more than about once or twice a year and then for probably less than one hour at a time so I think that further deterioration of its 12" CRT over the next 100 years is unlikely to be very noticeable if its future owners treat it likewise.

It does exhibit some ion burn but you wouldn't notice it with the set switched off. As to components, it had quite a few 1940/50s replacements when I bought it and I've tried to replace these with genuine 30s resistors of correct style and I created replica capacitors to replace the "modern" nasties.

I did butcher the EHT transformer but still retain the original winding although I re-used the core. My winding is not pitch covered but it is hidden within a metal can. Some of my replica capacitors also appear in the lower photo and a photo of an original TCC cap.

If I possessed an almost unrepaired/unrestored example I think I would not want to do anything to it but find a suitable museum for it to live in.

Peter

vts1134 · #22 01-17-2014, 10:07 AM

Is there anyone who feels that "restuffing" parts is in fact WORSE and should be avoided? A few of us have eluded to this in this, and other posts in the past. Are the "insides" of a capacitor any less valuable than the "shells"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rld-tv01

For the purest historians etc you should photograph the capacitors before removing, then bag and label them with location removed from he set etc, and keep them with documentation for the set. Then 300 years from now people can analyze it.

prkohlwey · #23 01-17-2014, 10:08 AM

As I collect several different things I also have had to decide how to get it running again without changing the looks. I have restored many radios that people would have thrown away. I like to see things in their original state but sometimes it just dont work that way. I also restore antique flywheel engines and sometimes when you get one that looks like it has been at the bottom of a lake you do what you can to get it working again. normally I would never think of painting one if it has at least 30 % original paint but sometimes when you have a complete rust bucket or someone before you painted it I just match the paint sand blast it and start over. I do the same with my radios to a minimal point I do get them running again but I dont go as far as making the caps look original. I will repair cabinets if they are coming apart and touch up scratches. I have over 300 radios ranging from the early teens to the 50's. I have only made one cabinet for one because I did not have one and I only know of 2 others in existence. I borrowed one from a friend of mine and made a duplicate. I can barley tell the difference my self but I put a little mark on mine so I can tell the difference. is it original.... no..... but I had to preserve this radio to the best I can. Well enough of my 2 cents worth.

Paul K

bandersen · #24 01-17-2014, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vts1134

Is there anyone who feels that "restuffing" parts is in fact WORSE and should be avoided? A few of us have eluded to this in this, and other posts in the past. Are the "insides" of a capacitor any less valuable than the "shells"?

I think restuffing the electrolytics is definitely preferable to drilling holes in the chassis, mounting terminal strips for new caps and altering the wiring.

I have to echo Phil's comments above. That's the main reason I'm into this hobby as well. I mostly enjoy to finding and restoration process and lose interest once a project is done. I'm really not much of a collector I guess.

The way I look at is that these sets were meant to be maintained and used. After all, mountains of service info and spare parts were produced. Just as I wouldn't expect a vintage car to have it's original tires, oil filter, spark plugs, etc. So I don't see any harm done with replacing a few parts to keep a TV running.

As for the uber-rare sets that are museum worthy, I'd think long and hard about touching them.

vts1134 · #25 01-17-2014, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandersen

I have to echo Phil's comments above. That's the main reason I'm into this hobby as well. I mostly enjoy to finding and restoration process and lose interest once a project is done. I'm really not much of a collector I guess.

I think we are all collectors, regardless of our collection philosophies.

Kevin Kuehn · #26 01-17-2014, 01:10 PM

I for one feel that I was brought into this world maybe 50-60 years too late for my intended purpose. So in a sense I'm using the old TV's and radios as my creative medium, probably in an attempt to provide a service that has no real use in today's society. I honestly feel like I have some sort of spiritual drive that keeps compelling me to studying and fixing up the old stuff, and at the same time I'm witnessing my insanity in what often seems like a huge waste of my time. I'm sure a big part of this stems from me not having an employment opportunity that's what I'd consider "very intellectually stimulating". So I suspect I'm using this nostalgic creative process as a complement to my otherwise less than satisfying lifestyle.

There, that's my self psychological diagnosis for the day (pays self $200).

Einar72 · #27 01-17-2014, 01:34 PM

I doubt I will ever come across any museum-worthy pieces, so I'll cross that bridge once I get to it. As for the more common prewar radios and postwar TV's, I like to replace caps and resistors with as old as I can, or at least keep the brand, if possible. Like Phil says, a piece that's already restored is no fun, and I generally avoid them. I may try re-stuffing electrolytic cans someday, where I'm probably stuck buying imported caps. Nothing ruins the mystique of a prewar set like imported parts; they often look so cheesy! However, I'm unlikely to start re-pulling TV chassis once restored, so I really won't sweat part choices I had to make. Now that there's an internet article on faking dog-bone resistors, I suppose there will be peer pressure to do that as well...

decojoe67 · #28 01-19-2014, 05:14 PM

I only buy sets that have original finishes, even if they need a serious cleaning and detailing. I feel all the imperfections are part of the sets history. I want them there. It just has to simply look clean and presentable to me. As I'm not a technician, I almost immediately bring the set to my repairman to get it working. He replaces only what is necessary to make it safe and work well and does not re-stuff paper caps. It is something that doesn't concern me at all being it is under the chassis. To me having the set working is where most of the enjoyment is with these TV's! Seeing a set come to life and enjoying a classic show/movie on them is a great experience and a lot of fun. it never gets old for me.
I take care of the sets in my collection, but it's just for my own enjoyment and being a fun pastime, nothing more. If I'm indirectly being a "preservationist" that's great, but I can't honestly say that's what I'm thinking about when I add to my collection. I don't get that serious about it.
Joe

marty59 · #29 01-19-2014, 07:53 PM

+1 on no refinishing if possible, and I'm not including "restor-a-finish" as refinishing as much as cleaning and preserving the original finish/patena is. As for the electronics, I like the neatness approach and I will restuff the electrolytics. Someday, maybe someone else will be caretaking my sets and my work can live on.

I do relate to the car analogy, do you want to drive it (safely) or look at it? What's the best approach for that "one" piece?

Kevin Kuehn · #30 01-19-2014, 11:07 PM

I find I don't watch my restored sets much after the fact, and so I often question why I'd continue doing more of them. It's an enjoyable pastime, so I basically write it off to good cheap entertainment. But I do fear I'll have trouble giving away most of what I've collected if I continue to restore the electronics of them all. For the most part I stopped restoring radio's years ago for the same reason.