1961 hand held color tv?

[julianburke]

Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early. Remember SONY had that flat CRT in their "Watchmans" only in B&W in the '80's some 25 years later. COLOR flat tubes in 1961?? I don't think so as they were not that advanced. B&W I may hardly believe that, but not color. There was too much geometry in that tube to understand in 1961.

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

BTW, just where would the shadow mask have been???

Julian KJ4NCW

[jr_tech]

Originally Posted by julianburke

Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early.

I agree, The "TV set" shown in 1961 was likely pretty much an empty box mock-up to demonstrate a concept. The lollipop CRT at ETF looks like a later (late 70s I think is a good guess) engineering special that likely could produce an image. Careful examination of the CRT at ETF should reveal if it was Monochrome or color. I would guess monochrome.

Originally Posted by julianburke

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

Agree... If the ETF prototype CRT was color (doubtful IMHO), It would have taken a ton of electronics to produce proper geometry and convergence, but for engineering work, a rack full of special driver circuits could have been used.

Originally Posted by julianburke

BTW, where would the shadow mask have been???

Good question... and how would convergence of the three beams been obtained?... an almost impossible task, IMHO. Beam index technology would seem to be more practical.
By the mid 80s, A lollipop style color CRT using beam index design may perhaps have made into an actual product... some discussion of the Sanyo Prototype/Product about halfway through this thread:

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=248210

jr

[etype2]

Originally Posted by julianburke

Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early. Remember SONY had that flat CRT in their "Watchmans" only in B&W in the '80's some 25 years later. COLOR flat tubes in 1961?? I don't think so as they were not that advanced. B&W I may hardly believe that, but not color. There was too much geometry in that tube to understand in 1961.

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

BTW, where would the shadow mask have been???

I have a 1966 Motorola annual report. Motorola developed a flat screen CRT for hospital use in 1966. Interestingly, some 16 years before the famous Sony FD 210 Watchman flat CRT.

See photo and text from report: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time...creen-tv-1966/

[jr_tech]

Originally Posted by etype2

I have a 1966 Motorola annual report. Motorola developed a flat screen CRT for hospital use in 1966. Interestingly, some 16 years before the famous Sony FD 210 Watchman flat CRT.

See photo and text from report: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time...creen-tv-1966/

Very interesting... Did Motorola actually claim to have developed a flat CRT for the unit? Do you have any details?

A few things come to mind:
!. Since the unit is on a long cable, the complex driving circuitry could have been located apart from the display, making for a compact unit, even in the era before complicated ICs, so perhaps it would have been possible.

2. Perhaps the body of the unit could have contained a small monochrome CRT and a mirror/lens system similar to the Philco Safari. Again could have been possible with remote electronics.

3. The caption says "talk to a nurse and operate a combination radio-television set"...Which may be an indication that this was just a "nurse call button" combined with a fancy radio/tv remote control... but it sure looks like a display screen.

Scratching my head over this one, thanks for posting it!
jr

[etype2]

Originally Posted by jr_tech

Very interesting... Did Motorola actually claim to have developed a flat CRT for the unit? Do you have any details?

A few things come to mind:
!. Since the unit is on a long cable, the complex driving circuitry could have been located apart from the display, making for a compact unit, even in the era before complicated ICs, so perhaps it would have been possible.

2. Perhaps the body of the unit could have contained a small monochrome CRT and a mirror/lens system similar to the Philco Safari. Again could have been possible with remote electronics.

3. The caption says "talk to a nurse and operate a combination radio-television set"...Which may be an indication that this was just a "nurse call button" combined with a fancy radio/tv remote control... but it sure looks like a display screen.

Scratching my head over this one, thanks for posting it!
jr

That's what I thought as well, just a control unit, but that sure looks like a display screen about 3.5 inches. In 1966 the Intertel Corporation in Los Angles demonstrated a working two sided flat 6 inch color TV. You could actually view it on both sides. So the advanced circuitry was available in 1966 to create the prototype flat color CRT. This makes me believe the hospital TV is real.

See photo of working 6 inch flat color CRT. http://www.visions4.net/journal/time...wordpress-525/

[jr_tech]

Originally Posted by etype2

That's what I thought as well, just a control unit, but that sure looks like a display screen about 3.5 inches.

That's what I thought at first, but I remember seeing formed metal speaker grills (with very tiny punched holes) on vintage Motorola 2-way radios that had a similar appearance. Notice the odd contour and shape of the "screen"... I now think I am seeing a speaker/microphone, not a CRT face.

jr

[etype2]

Originally Posted by jr_tech

That's what I thought at first, but I remember seeing formed metal speaker grills (with very tiny punched holes) on vintage Motorola 2-way radios that had a similar appearance. Notice the odd contour and shape of the "screen"... I now think I am seeing a speaker/microphone, not a CRT face.

jr

Point well taken. Probably not a TV. That pointed screen threw me also. Why have that shape if a viewing screen.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by etype2

See photo of working 6 inch flat color CRT. http://www.visions4.net/journal/time...wordpress-525/

Nope, not a picture of a WORKING flat screen set. May be a photo of a flat screen set that worked, but the picture is definitely a paste-up, unless someone can tell me that they had a CRT that could make black areas despite the light coming in. Or was that "view from either side" article a note on a two sided CRT that would need to have the back covered by a black shield to actually use it anywhere but a darkroom?

[etype2]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

Nope, not a picture of a WORKING flat screen set. May be a photo of a flat screen set that worked, but the picture is definitely a paste-up, unless someone can tell me that they had a CRT that could make black areas despite the light coming in. Or was that "view from either side" article a note on a two sided CRT that would need to have the back covered by a black shield to actually use it anywhere but a darkroom?

The full article which can be read at post #44 states that the reporter saw working prototypes in action, both color and black & white. The reporter commented that the flesh tones were the best he had seen.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by etype2

The full article which can be read at post #44 states that the reporter saw working prototypes in action, both color and black & white. The reporter commented that the flesh tones were the best he had seen.

These statements I can believe. The flesh hue is determined by the color of the red/orange phosphor. It is desaturated by some amount of complementary cyan, but its hue cannot change.

As the author states, purple is not possible - but I have no idea what he means by "reddish blue" if it's not purple (which it couldn't be) - maybe he means it was slightly variable from slightly blue to slightly red.

Here are some shots of Cliff Benham's 2-color field sequential set (left smaller screen) vs. ordinary 3-color (right screen), from the 2009 Early Television convention.


P5010070 by old_tv_nut, on Flickr

P5010072 by old_tv_nut, on Flickr

P5010114 by old_tv_nut, on Flickr

P5010115 by old_tv_nut, on Flickr

Finally, 3-color bars on left, 2-color on right:

P5010099 by old_tv_nut, on Flickr

[oldtvman]

Originally Posted by julianburke

Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early. Remember SONY had that flat CRT in their "Watchmans" only in B&W in the '80's some 25 years later. COLOR flat tubes in 1961?? I don't think so as they were not that advanced. B&W I may hardly believe that, but not color. There was too much geometry in that tube to understand in 1961.

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

BTW, where would the shadow mask have been???

All I can say is we didn't know about the SR71 blackbird for a long time and companies back then tended to keep new stuff on the back burner and release it slowly. Maybe someone who worked at Rca during that time would be able to shed some light on this.

[Phil Nelson]

Originally Posted by julianburke

IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!!

Yes, it's interesting to compare a Sony 8-301W, a B/W transistor TV that actually shipped in 1961. I suppose it's about as small as you could make a practical TV from available components at the time -- quite a bit bigger and heavier than the "palm sized" mockup in the RCA photo!







Philco's Safari had a different form factor and used a much smaller CRT, but it was a real brick, as well.

Phil Nelson