Ok well now it's confusing, I got the SAMs for this set and it shows the sync phase inv tube to be a 6u8 but the tube lineup on the paper that came with the set shows a 12bh7 so weather this has anything to do with the verticle not working I don't know. If I try the 6u8 it may burn out but at the same time I don't want to burn up anything else by trying this tube.

There were 2 different Sam's for the model number you gave (I listed them I the initial post I made with schematic pictures) and the different Sam's had different tube compliments.

I should pull the two Sam's out later and see if either shows that tube...

Just for the heck of it, can 3 non polarized 100 volt capacitors be put in the series config to make a non polar 300 volt cap.

Yes, not forgetting that they still follow the same rule of adding voltage but losing value in series. If the running voltage of the circuit is close to the total voltage of the caps, you might want to add some high value resistors across the caps to equalize the voltage across them so one cap doesn't approach the voltage limit.

John

Ok well I'll just put 2- 200volt 47uf caps together neg to neg and use the positives for the connections to make a 400 volt 24 uf non polar cap.

This tv is making me nuts it's all recapped and yet I cannot find anything wrong, resistors are not perfect but are still in the area verticle output and oscillator transformers check good ohms. The oscillator pins 6 and 7 have no activity at all . Pin 6 has 7 volts which should be 90 volts and pin 7 has negative .770 volts which should be negative 26 volts pin 2 of the same tube output side has 25 volts which is ok having 21 volts . So it seems there is a clear problem with the oscillator section and I concentrated on that area resistors and find nothing. Where there supposed to be the high voltages there is. I subbed the hold pot, height, and linearity pots still nothing just a horizontal line. I'm sure the voltages are simply not there because the tube is not conducting at least I think that's the voltages that are in the SAMs as a working set. The SAMs I have is a speck different but everything I checked already matches the SAMs I have if a resistor shows otherwise I check it anyway. I don't know if the yoke is needed for the oscillator to run but I just as well look into the yoke although nothing is burned visually.

With the yoke and CRT connected try connecting the osc grid to the heater line through a .1 if cap and if that doesn't give deflection then try connecting the output grid to heater voltage.

Transformers can have shorted turns...When that happens resistance can still be exactly normal but the transformer won't oscillate or pass signal normally.

Ok pin 2 with the .1 cap to heater the screen opens about 2 inches pin 7 it opens less then an inch. So there was Alittle deflection. So what might that mean, a bad oscillator transformer ?

If there is 2 different SAMs for this set then maybe the ohms would be different I really don't know because I have the SAMs that you posted in an earlier post and the part number for the oscillator trans I have here is A10106-1 but the SAMs shows PB10106-1 close but I don't know if I could use that one with the PB instead of the A if this trans is found to be bad.

Ok so I located a verticle oscillator transformer and hopefully this will cure the problem since spending days checking resistor , voltage sources, is making me nuts without finding anything. I have good sound and it has a picture that I can see changing in the horizontal line so at this point it's verticle or nothing. :scratch2::smoke:

Ok so by adding a .1 cap to the heater source to pin 2 grid of the verticle oscillator gives me Alittle verticle deflection, what does this mean, a bad oscillator transformer or a missing voltage source because I am out of ideas on how to get the verticle running. I do have the oscillator trans coming but I'm still looking around for other possible causes in case I put the trans in and that don't work, so I'm trying to be Alittle ahead of it. Any little help would be appreciated.

Ok well another dead end got a nos verticle oscillator transformer and of course still no verticle. I have went over a lot and I do know I'm missing something here and it should be obvious but I'm not finding what's going on here. So now I'll check voltages on neighboring tubes tied to verticle.

Hi Timmy,
Do you have an oscilloscope ? If you do check for the waveform at the grid of the vertical output portion of the 12bh7. If you do then your blocking transformer should be O.K. If there is a correct waveform at the grid then check for a wave form at the plate of the 12bh7 vertical output. If you get a wave form , then disconnect one of the leads from the vertical deflection coil. then test for a waveform on the secondary of the vertical output transformer. If you do get a waveform then you may have a problem with the yoke.
Ed

No I don't have a scope, I'm flying solo here, lol.

Hey tom, could you please tell me what the SAMs set and folder number is of the schematic with the 12bh7 tube, v8 , if you have it , the SAMs I have is with the 6u8 , v8 , there are obvious differences and I'm not getting anywhere without the right SAMs. Maybe I can find it with the right number. Thanks. Tim

I did give the set number that contains it before...See link for full number.
https://www.samswebsite.com/en/photo...earch&s=Search


The Sam's sites search function is something every collector that uses Sam's should be familiar with...I use it instead of my paper copy of the index because it is faster. You now have been taught how to fish (for Sam's numbers).

Just like the old saying goes "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day , , , ,

, , , teach a man to fish and , ,

:mad: and , AND , AND he'll sit on his ass all day on the boat drinking beer with his buddies and not get anything done around the house :mad:

Oh , wait , that was the X who used to say that , nevermind ..... :D

:lmao: LMAO...the bad X's version of a proverb about knowledge and self sufficiency. :D

Ahh , ok , I don't fish anyway , lol

Oh and tom, there seems to be 3 versions there are 2 214 that is listed they have different item numbers so I'm not sure but I guess start with the one that hopefully has the right tube.

There's only one version of Sam's folder 214-2 in my paper library....The monkey/intern/temp they had scanning the paper to PDF probably goofed and scanned it twice (especially given the item numbers for the pdf files are sequential).

Personally I'd check eBay for a cheaper original paper copy of Sam's 214-2 before I'd buy a mediocre scan or photo copy from Sam's website....the only reason I visit the Sam's site most times is to use the search function to tell me exactly where in my file cabinets I can find the schematic...

Yes I'm looking into eBay but your version you posted on page one shows the right tube but my set has a non polar cap that your 214 don't show so there may have been changes along the way. The problem I may have is there is no grid voltage to set the oscillator running but I have to wait to see if I get the 214 SAMs.

On a 5u4 rectifier tube the plate terminals are 4-6 this set had a 5u4 in it but numbers 3-5 have the ac so a 5u4 may only work on one side so is there another rectifier tube that uses 3-5 ? It may be the 5x4 since I don't have the right SAMs. Ok here's a weird update the transformer has output on 3-5 but the filiment source is 2-8 but the 5x4 the filiment is 7-8 so both these tubes won't work unless a jumper is put in place, so I don't know what's going on here I don't think there is another tube that would have 3-5 for the plate and 2-8 for the filiment.

Are you sure you're not reading the tube the wrong way around ? 4-6 would look like 3-5 if you count around backwards.

Well yes you are correct I had the chassis on its side and I did count the pins backwards so that's good , but still cannot get the verticle running .

Hey tom, how much do you want for a copy or some sort of scan of the SAMs you have that has the 12bh7 tube not the 6u8.

Presently due to covid19 I'm not allowed to go to any public location with a good copier (my folks won't let me back in the house if I do that or anything similar). If I could do that like normal I'd change you the cost of the copy and postage.

The only scanner in the house is a 8x11 unit my folks own (and I have never used)...if you don't mind 17x11 sheets being fragmented into multiple 8x11 scans I can try that later...If I can scan it and find a way to get the files to you then you can have the scans gratis.

If my employer had only made work from home voluntary instead of mandatory like they did I'd try to scan it there...

oh hey tom anything at this point would be a huge help this set is driving me absolutely crazy, you can even email me with what ever you can do and again if there is a charge let me know. If you need the email just send me a pm and I'll give it to you. Thanks a lot. Tim. Ps I don't need the whole thing mostly just the main page and the cap or parts list that should be it.

Well my folks informed me their scanner does not work. I downloaded a scanner app for my smartphone and while it is not as good as using an actual hardware based scanner I think it is better than the pictures I have taken so far....my PM box is full so I can't send any. Click on my user name and select the 'send email to Electronic M' option and send me your email address and I'll email you back the PDF of the schematic and parts list.

Ok tom I sent the email address. Thanks again for your help.

No problem. You should have the file in your email.

Hey tom I got it thanks again, but amazingly that SAMs is different Like the one I have but your SAMs has the right tube and comparing to the chassis I have here is clearly different. Different values on resistors as well as voltage differences even the way things are wired. There is a cap or 2 in this set that is not on either SAMs .I had recapped this set one cap at a time so I know I didn't put a cap in the wrong place. So I guess there is more then 2 SAMs for this set so at this point I'm not sure where to go from here. There are several 470k resistors that are in the verticle measuring .540m and .539m so I don't think that is so bad but if there were changes maybe these resistors in a given circuit cannot tolerate a rise in value. These resistors in both SAMs show 100k , clearly different. And the chassis didn't look like it was ever touched. :scratch2::smoke:

Is there any chassis that had 2 or more SAMs for the same chassis ? I had gone over 2 SAMs for the same chassis and they are wired differently and it's frustrating to find the right one since it looks like there maybe 3 or 4 of the same folder number and one different. No wonder cbs Columbia never made it up there like RCA and others. This set has all the power supply caps ground to the chassis so how is it possible to get over 300 volts from a cap that is grounded to the chassis and the positive to the verticle height pot to the plate of the oscillator with only 15 volts, pot turned up, it's not possible. There is 300 volts befor a 470k resistor but after there is 15 volts and the resistor is good. These original caps were one cap with 3 caps inside or 4 inside , the multi caps, so I don't know if these caps had some sort of internal connection, I don't know how that could have been done. The oscillator plate needs over 100volts.

Well I finally got verticle running but I do have a horizontal line that is bigger now but I now have lines from top to bottom like retrace lines and still no pic so without the proper SAMs I'm taking a guess on certain things. Video output and horiz and vert sync next.

Any ideas where to go from here, I hope it's not the yoke, I'm sure you guys have seen a lot of this but I haven't, I'm lost, lol. I am wondering if the flyback may be responsible here since I checked the ohms on the flyback and compaired it with a flyback I got from early television museum and pins 2 and 8 on the new one reads like 3.2 ohms but on the fly in the set don't read anything. I don't know if the flyback would do this.

It looks like you have dim non-linear deflection in the upper half and possibly more above. Do you have a scope?...If so I'd check the vertical waveforms against Sam's.

Well I don't have a scope so it took longer to track down the problem here's the result. This IPad does this all the time upside down photos. :no:

Looks like you got it working? What was the problem?

a few stubborn 66 year old mica caps which some still say, oh they don't go bad, oh but they do. :D

My android does the same. Here's a free on-line tool that will resize the image, crop the image, and rotate the image the way you want:

https://resizeimage.net/

Easy to use and doesn't mess with the resolution as far as I can tell. I used to use MS Paint and other photo apps on my computer, but this works as well and is far simpler.

Here is a pic that I converted using that link. This image was both cropped to show mostly screen and rotated 90 degrees:

https://i.imgur.com/hDwmMKm.jpg?1

John

EDIT: here's your pic cropped and rotated using that on-line tool:

https://i.imgur.com/D5p80q1.jpg