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-   -   Duncan's 1960 Magnavox (http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=276762)

NowhereMan 1966 08-17-2024 03:23 PM

I have the same exact rabbit ears, my parents got them when they were married in 1959. I still use them on my 1982 Zenith.

Electronic M 08-17-2024 07:07 PM

I've got a set too. They were too cool to pass up. Have yet to hook them up and see if they paint the corners...

Mr.Duncan 08-17-2024 09:52 PM

Still digging into the vertical issue. Removed the chassis, triple checked all capacitors, re-did all the solder points to be safe.

Swapped out both Vert OSC (6BF6) and Vert Output (6DT5) with some good NOS tubes.

Replaced R50 with a new resistor.

Still got vertical collapse. - I guess I could work backwards from 6DT5?

Set the line voltage to 117v AC.

When checking 6DT5 I got the following voltages:
  1. Pin# 1 280.1v (spec is 275)
  2. Pin# 7 20.52v (spec is 20v)


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...500f843d_c.jpgPXL_20240818_023303382 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1102ee4b_c.jpgPXL_20240818_023131537 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...fc8009cb_c.jpgPXL_20240818_023143176 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a564f4c4_c.jpgtube by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...2e32d6f8_c.jpgPXL_20240818_023948540 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...766e4e87_c.jpgPXL_20240818_024008008 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ff93f8cb_b.jpgPXL_20240818_023359388 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

Electronic M 08-18-2024 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Duncan (Post 3258974)
Still digging into the vertical issue. Removed the chassis, triple checked all capacitors, re-did all the solder points to be safe.

Swapped out both Vert OSC (6BF6) and Vert Output (6DT5) with some good NOS tubes.

Replaced R50 with a new resistor.

Still got vertical collapse. - I guess I could work backwards from 6DT5?

Set the line voltage to 117v AC.

When checking 6DT5 I got the following voltages:
  1. Pin# 1 280.1v (spec is 275)
  2. Pin# 7 20.52v (spec is 20v)


Those voltages are completely normal. With line voltage set to the same 117V as Sam's anything within +/-25% is normal (in stages like vertical or CRT gun grid/cathode where the bias is controlled by potentiometers the normal range can be much larger than 25% and it's sometimes wise to adjust the relevant pots to make sure they can get the voltage that sam's says should be there.

If all the vertical voltages measure normal you may want to check the output transformer, and yoke and their connections to each other.

Mr.Duncan 08-18-2024 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic M (Post 3258986)
Those voltages are completely normal. With line voltage set to the same 117V as Sam's anything within +/-25% is normal (in stages like vertical or CRT gun grid/cathode where the bias is controlled by potentiometers the normal range can be much larger than 25% and it's sometimes wise to adjust the relevant pots to make sure they can get the voltage that sam's says should be there.

If all the vertical voltages measure normal you may want to check the output transformer, and yoke and their connections to each other.

I'll check those tonight. I did find a low voltage PIN#7 of the 6BF6 tube.
(Vert Mult / AGC clamper)

I believe pin#7 is the output that feeds into 6DT5 Tube?

I was able to vary the voltage of pin#7 between 7.47 to 11v, but no higher than 11. (using the vertical adjustment pot)

Voltage spec: 25v
Reading: 7.47-to-11v

Some good news:
Im getting clear audio out from the TV- was broadcasting signal on channel #7 with my Blonder Tongue.

Checked the Yoke- Ohm reads are within spec.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a564f4c4_c.jpgtube by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

Username1 08-19-2024 07:11 AM

.

Good Morning - Just a quick note - Things to check - On pin 3-6 of V10 the vert output,
put your finger or a DVM probe on it with nothing attached and see if the line on the
screen moves up or down, or if you can put any 60Hz signal on it like from a Signal
gen, or radio speaker on it there should be deflection. If none - then you should
check for any voltage on the plate of V10, since there is no deflection, it should
be completely safe, looking for about 280V. If nothing, track through the T2
to see if you have it or if T2 has open windings. If you get deflection when
you touch G1 of V10, then you have to go Back into the Osc, Don't forget
to look at the feedback loop through R45, & 46. Also, most important -
Since this tv worked before you replaced parts, keep an open mind to
the possibility that you wired something wrong, My money is on a
mistake in wiring or part placement. Also, see that 25ma current
reading for the cathode of V10, that is often printed where they
tell you not to measure the plate voltage, You can lift one side
of R51 and check the current, to see if the tubie is conducting.
Also be ready to check voltages on V9 as well.... Also -
The Vert Hold has a plug & socket in the schematic - If you
have this on your tv be sure to check that if you had to
undo it to work on the set.... Good Luck!

.

old_coot88 08-19-2024 08:59 AM

You don't have to lift anything to see if the vert. out is conducting. Just look for voltage on the cathode; if there's voltage, the tube is conducting. And it'll vary with turning the v linearity pot (no matter whether sweep is occuring or not).

Mr.Duncan 08-19-2024 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Username1 (Post 3258999)
.

Good Morning - Just a quick note - Things to check - On pin 3-6 of V10 the vert output,
put your finger or a DVM probe on it with nothing attached and see if the line on the
screen moves up or down, or if you can put any 60Hz signal on it like from a Signal
gen, or radio speaker on it there should be deflection. If none - then you should
check for any voltage on the plate of V10, since there is no deflection, it should
be completely safe, looking for about 280V. If nothing, track through the T2
to see if you have it or if T2 has open windings. If you get deflection when
you touch G1 of V10, then you have to go Back into the Osc, Don't forget
to look at the feedback loop through R45, & 46.

Also, most important -
Since this tv worked before you replaced parts, keep an open mind to
the possibility that you wired something wrong, My money is on a
mistake in wiring or part placement. Also, see that 25ma current
reading for the cathode of V10, that is often printed where they
tell you not to measure the plate voltage, You can lift one side
of R51 and check the current, to see if the tubie is conducting.
Also be ready to check voltages on V9 as well.... Also -
The Vert Hold has a plug & socket in the schematic - If you
have this on your tv be sure to check that if you had to
undo it to work on the set.... Good Luck!

.

Will do! - I'll check these tonight.

I'm always open to me making a mistake, perhaps I just haven't seen it yet. I did replace capacitors one at a time, while using tape to mark the wire connections (as to not lose track of the positions when replacing)

C2 did blow up - which is the reason why I replaced ALL capacitors at the same time, I probably should have replaced JUST C2 first and done testing.

I assume when I touch pins 3-through-6 of V10 it will cause the output plate of V10 to cause vertical deflection?

Why does the schematic say "DO NOT MEASURE" the plate output / Pin# 9 of V10? - The voltage doesn't seem THAT high?

Alex KL-1 08-19-2024 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Duncan (Post 3259002)
Will do! - I'll check these tonight.

I'm always open to me making a mistake, perhaps I just haven't seen it yet. I did replace capacitors one at a time, while using tape to mark the wire connections (as to not lose track of the positions when replacing)

C2 did blow up - which is the reason why I replaced ALL capacitors at the same time, I probably should have replaced JUST C2 first and done testing.

I assume when I touch pins 3-through-6 of V10 it will cause the output plate of V10 to cause vertical deflection?

Why does the schematic say "DO NOT MEASURE" the plate output / Pin# 9 of V10? - The voltage doesn't seem THAT high?

The DC voltage yes, will not that high. But, with deflection working, the retrace pulse/period produces a high amplitude spike in the primary, sometimes near 1.6kV. This for every frame, aka. 60 times per second of these pulses (for vertical stage; 50 times for a lot of another countries).

Mr.Duncan 08-19-2024 09:54 AM

Okay I think I found it. I did make a wiring mistake!

C35 was connected to the wrong pin of V9 / 6BF6.

I must have been distracted, but its clearly on the wrong terminal.

Check the before/after photos below.

C35 was replaced with a MICA cap. .0051 uF @ 500v

I will remove the capacitor, check it, and reinstall (if okay) on the correct pin.

I wonder if this could have caused any harm?


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...2ebd783c_b.jpgUntitled by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a564f4c4_c.jpgtube by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

Alex KL-1 08-19-2024 12:47 PM

Perhaps not, is worth to testing the TV now.

Username1 08-19-2024 09:56 PM

.

"I assume when I touch pins 3-through-6 of V10 it will cause the output plate of
V10 to cause vertical deflection? "

The Schematic says pin 3-6 which is usually pins 3&6 not 3,4,5,6 as in
3-through-6 you can see some pins to to heaters etc. Other stuff....


Also -

" The DC voltage yes, will not that high. But, with deflection working, the retrace
pulse/period produces a high amplitude spike in the primary, sometimes near
1.6kV. This for every frame, aka. 60 times per second of these pulses
(for vertical stage; 50 times for a lot of another countries). " Correct.

As long as the circuit is not functioning, no deflection, you can check the plate,
in a vert. or horiz. output circuit. And that is why in a case where "Do Not
Measure" is printed they often give a cathode current number you can
check. And proper way to check is to put the current meter in the circuit
by removing one leg of a resistor, or whatever runs from cathode
to ground. This is best practice. In this circuit you are also given
a voltage you can measure, but there is a reason they give you
current, and you should do it right, it can show other problems
in an otherwise working "looking" circuit. Too high a current
often means bias trouble, for example.


Cool that you found a possible cause for this trouble!

Good Night.


.

Mr.Duncan 08-20-2024 08:02 AM

And we got vertical!

It was just a wiring mistake on C35.

I still need to fine-tune everything, but its working well.

I was told not to run the vertical width to "fill the picture tube" as that's overdriving the unit and hard on the parts?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...393d0af4_h.jpgPXL_20240819_215644784 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

Alex KL-1 08-20-2024 11:08 AM

I believe that the correct size fill and linearity for the vertical will not over stress the parts.
But, the image show here are not fill in horizontal direction... the image feed have the lateral bars, or the horizontal needs some adjustment?

EDITED: changed the question.

Mr.Duncan 08-20-2024 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex KL-1 (Post 3259028)
I believe that the correct size fill and linearity for the vertical will not over stress the parts.
But, the image show here are not fill in horizontal direction... the image feed have the lateral bars, or the horizontal needs some adjustment?

EDITED: changed the question.

Yes, the image shown does contain lateral bars. I will broadcast some correct 4:3 images tonight to fine tune the horizontal and vert.

Electronic M 08-20-2024 03:12 PM

As a general rule the proper setup is to have the screen just filled (maybe 1" of overscan) in both axes at the lowest line voltage you would run the set at. Some sets don't give width control so you get what you get or have to improvise.
Shango tends to give that vertical underscan advice but it's mostly chicken shit because 1.) no TV maker or repair shop would EVER do that back when these were in service, 2.) it doesn't allow proper geometry unless you can also adjust for matching horizontal underscan.
The one place vertical underscan is somewhat advisable in consumer TVs is on 60s color Zeniths...those Zeniths tend to short between secondaries from insufficient insulation and on those sets underscan lowers the risk. Someone is rebuilding those transformers now so it's not that big of a deal anymore.

Mr.Duncan 08-20-2024 05:45 PM

I need to get a proper antenna for my Blonder Tongue, but so far I got the TV adjusted pretty good I think.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1edc5df2_b.jpgPXL_20240820_215721494 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1d68464c_c.jpgPXL_20240820_210946464 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

Yamamaya42 08-20-2024 06:16 PM

Hello fellow "big mamma" Maggie 24AHP4.owner! :D:banana:

Mr.Duncan 08-21-2024 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamamaya42 (Post 3259037)
Hello fellow "big mamma" Maggie 24AHP4.owner! :D:banana:


Oh! We're these tubes considered big in the early 1960's?

Yamamaya42 08-21-2024 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Duncan (Post 3259055)
Oh! We're these tubes considered big in the early 1960's?

They were one of the biggest BW tubes ever made, however, they don't last very long, cause they tend to push the gun rather hard, mine works, but is on the weaker side.

I got it all for free, as it was just a chassis and CRT from a set that someone made into a pet bed, It's a newer one than yours, but still uses a 24AHP4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMHr4-WO8s

Mr.Duncan 08-21-2024 08:24 AM

I did end up re-coating the missing wax area of my flyback with silicone.

Everything worked great, I gave it 48+ hours to cure.

Silicone info is listed below.

Also picked up a spare NOS flyback to keep as a spare.

I think I need to re-cap the power supply to my Blonder Tongue, I'm getting a rolling bar on the screen. Rolls from bottom to the top. This occurs on both my CRT TV's.

Brand name: Momentive / SNAPSIL

Model RTV: RTV-133 Silicone Rubber

It's been reported good to use on flyback transformers, and carries the following traits:
  • It does not produce acetic Acid .
  • It utilizes an atomospheric moisture cure system, which releases an
    alcohol vapor from the sealant surface during cure.
  • Dielectric Strength: 20kv per 1mm layer.

I've got a MSDS sheet listed here for more reading/ spec.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...c30e8855_c.jpgPXL_20240815_205641719 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...2604c425_c.jpgPXL_20240820_230248590 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

Alex KL-1 08-21-2024 11:17 AM

Judjung by the photos, it seems that the CRT is very healthy, low hours probably, and alignment seems to be excellent, due to good image details. Excellent score! :banana:

Mr.Duncan 08-21-2024 08:12 PM

I left a sticker inside the unit with my phone # and a QR code that takes you directly to this forum thread.

Quick video link of the unit running: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaZr0C5sDT8


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...246e7685_c.jpgPXL_20240822_002306602~2 (1) by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

kvflyer 08-22-2024 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Duncan (Post 3259082)
I left a sticker inside the unit with my phone # and a QR code that takes you directly to this forum thread.
...

Good move, that takes all of the question out of the future use of the set.

Electronic M 08-22-2024 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamamaya42 (Post 3259056)
They were one of the biggest BW tubes ever made, however, they don't last very long, cause they tend to push the gun rather hard, mine works, but is on the weaker side.

I got it all for free, as it was just a chassis and CRT from a set that someone made into a pet bed, It's a newer one than yours, but still uses a 24AHP4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMHr4-WO8s

Yup. Until this spring you would have had my then biggest direct view set (23" Setchell Carlson School TV) beat. I believe there were 25, 27 and 30" built too, but the 30" Dumont Royal Sovereign was the biggest monochrome direct view ever. The Dumont is stupidly rare and heavy and on top of that it's hard to find one with a good CRT let alone a spare....So in spring I jumped on a 27" Muntz that the ETF had with a strong CRT in it. I think I paid something like $5 (they'd been trying to sell it for over a year) and unlike the Dumont I can actually move the damn thing myself.
It isn't my biggest monochrome picture though....at 5' diagonal the picture my Norelco protelgram duo-vue projector can throw onto a screen is fairly impressive...as well as dim.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Duncan (Post 3259057)

I think I need to re-cap the power supply to my Blonder Tongue, I'm getting a rolling bar on the screen. Rolls from bottom to the top. This occurs on both my CRT TV's.

Yeah, better than half my BTs have new caps...One of them had its bridge rectifier die during a lightning storm (which is weird because it and it's antenna are in the basement and there was a ton of other stuff plugged in and running that wasn't harmed).
Granted that hum bar isn't always caused by caps.... sometimes they're happier (read don't develop bars from hum loops) being ungrounded or even isolated from the grid...my main BT rack is powered by an isolation transformer and a PC in that rack is plugged in to an adapter that ungrounds the cord.

Alex KL-1 08-23-2024 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic M (Post 3259106)
.......................................



Yeah, better than half my BTs have new caps...One of them had its bridge rectifier die during a lightning storm (which is weird because it and it's antenna are in the basement and there was a ton of other stuff plugged in and running that wasn't harmed).
............................................

Sometimes I see these almost impossible to describe lightning discharge hitting only one device, sometimes one of the last of the chain... oh, these kV pulse propagations...

Mr.Duncan 12-06-2024 09:49 AM

TV is still running great!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e7936e43_c.jpgPXL_20241204_013652562 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr

Mr.Duncan 04-14-2025 10:18 AM

Lost control of my contrast setting.

Upon inspection it was just the cable connection, ended up stripping the wire back and re-soldering.

All good!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a805edbd_c.jpgPXL_20250413_010749060 by Thomas Duncan

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...75f21c15_c.jpgPXL_20250413_012026982 by Thomas Duncan,

Mr.Duncan 04-03-2026 12:06 PM

Felt right to watch the recent Artemis launch on the Magnavox.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cf62ec4c_c.jpgPXL_20260401_223348966 by Thomas Duncan, on Flickr


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