Digital Television may not be coming soon!
 

I attended our local monthly broadcast engineers meet today (SBE) and the big topic of the day is the digital changeover for next month. Well, it seems that there are a lot of problems yet to be worked out. Mainly, the converters may or may not work properly. It seems if you program a particular channel in, the station will not be there or found on another channel. People who are way out say 20 miles or more may not get anything. We talked about other problems with them as well.

Also, the gov't is out of those coupon cards and you will be placed on a waiting list with no one knowing if/when they will be available again.

There seems to be an inherent problem with the Funai converters that are sold by Sams/Walmart under the Magnavox name. Funai is aware of it and this has gone all the way to congressmen. What a mess this is going to be if you are not on cable! It is very likely the date for the changeover will be pushed back again. Let's wait and see.

Also there will be one analog station in most markets called a "lighthouse" station. It will be kind of like a Civil Defense station and will also have to broadcast in spanish.

I'm not real sure what is to happen but what have some of you heard who are in broadcast?

Who the hell is in charge of this unholy mess ? Larry, Moe, & Curley ? They've only had 5, 10, 15, 20 (pick one) years to get this sorted out...Damn, what a trainwreck..And trust me, Julian, I'm NOT raggin' on you or the other broadcast people...This fiasco is entirely of The Gummint's making. I'm gonna stop now, before I get political.

I hear the President Elect is going to postpone the deadline. The Commerce department ran out of coupons for the converter box give away. (No money left in the budget.) What a mess!

Here is a link to the story...
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html
HERE WE GO!!!

Can someone explain to me (and anyone else unclear on the subject) just WHY it is/was so important to Make The Switch? Is it to free up more bandwidth in that range of RF? And if so, what for?

The transition WILL happen. The program has had one major tweak to allow people in nursing homes to get coupons. I expect another tweak will fix the current coupon problem (with some delay) by a vote to allow recycling the expired coupons.

Not sure what you mean by "Mainly, the converters may or may not work properly. It seems if you program a particular channel in, the station will not be there or found on another channel. " As far as I know, the converter boxes work as designed, that is, they display the station's historic channel number (unless the station has programmed it into its data incorrectly). All the boxes have a menu item to scan for active channels, so the user does not need to "program a particular channel." There is one slight hitch left in that some stations are changing frequency after the analog shutdown, so people need to re-scan the channel line-up on their converter or DTV on Feb. 18. A few PBS stations that can go to their new assignment early are doing so and shutting off analog in January. The Zenith and Insignia boxes (and I believe others) even have a choice to add channels without redoing the whole scan.

I know people love to rag on the government, but except for Congress not anticipating and providing for people who procrastinate, they and the broadcast industry have been doing an excellent job in getting the word out, and in most cases the coupon contractor has been doing well on the coupon program. In fact, most people I come in contact with these days are saying "enough already with the messages."

IMO, the only thing wrong with all the publicity to date is that it didn't say "convert now" instead of "convert on Feb 17" The digital signals are available and have been available for months. Have you converted your mother. grandfather, great uncle yet? If not, shame on you! You are a greater problem than Congress! You are the guru in your circle of acquaintances. You should be finding out if there are any problems beforehand, not after analog shuts down.

So, yeah, the bill was written a little goofy, but the program as a whole appears to have worked very well even given the limitations that were put on it by Congress.

So that the spectrum can be auctioned for money-making mobile services and some freed for public service. There is an intense demand for more mobile spectrum, which could not be realized with bandwidth-hungry analog TV in place. Public service radio in particular, keeps goign through a series of stumbles in which various emergency agencies cannot communicate with each other, and the availability of new bandwidth at least gives the opportunity to develop new systems that would allow cooperation of different levels of government.

I knew it had to have something to do with the dollar value of that particular piece of the spectrum...

Thanks.

There are some (mostly smaller) stations that "hot-swapping" their analog and digital signals - shutting the old analog down and simultaneously bringing the digital system online - so in some markets, not all channels are currently available as a digital broadcast yet.

Sweden managed to move cars from the left side to the right side of the road,
so the U.S. should be able to do this transition. Good luck.

A pity I can't comment on the general idea of auctioning spectrum: that would
be politics...

Interesting, did not know that. Excellent example
 

Hehehe.

No surprise that the Magnavox box has issues...I bought one and it is by far the worst of the bunch. Not nearly as user-friendly as the Insignia or DigitalStream that I have, and the lack of analog pass through hinders its usefullness right now. I am more optimistic about digital than I was 6 months ago, mostly because now that stations are switching to full power digital I can see that reception won't be a major problem; at least I'll be able to get the stations I could before, plus the addition of subchannels. 2 of the 3 locals have shut off their analog transmitters already.

On the other hand, tonight I got a call from my stepmother. She has a fairly new LCD set and Dish network. Over the holidays I had to add a splitter so they can watch local stations. Well, for some reason today it's not working. Looks like I have to make time tomorrow to ride over there and see what's wrong.

To me, the problem is not the converter boxes. I have been using several different models for almost a year now. The problem is that DTV has inherant weaknesses vs analog that could be life threatining. From my experience, it simply craps out in bad weather, not matter what converter box you are using(I am 30 miles from the transmitters). This can be critical in tornado alley. (If any of you say "radio", when was the last time you heard a weather warning on commercial radio or saw a radar picture on a weather radio!!).

In addtion there are millions of people(many low income of jobless now) who could not receive DTV(due to where they live) even if given a new ATSC ready TV and antenna. Is essentially stealing their TV so corporations can buy the spectrum and then sell it back to use fair?

Banning analog TV broadcast either one of the stupidest or crookest communications realated ideas to come out of government in a long time(probably since Armstrong was screwed by Sarnoff on FM radio after WWII).

---

I've been getting quite a few digital stations for a few years now. Some from as far away as 90 miles using my Hughes HIRD-E8 and a rotatable roof mounted antenna. The nice thing about the HIRD-E8 is that I can view HDTV broadcasts and convert them to standard.

I did apply for a coupon. Since they've run out it'll probably be sometime before I get one.

However, I would expect a large glut of digital converters on craigslist and ebay in a couple of years for nearly free or free as people replace their sets.

John

I expect that the transition in the UK would be smoother. I think that the much higher(in general) population density and the much less varied terrain/weather conditions there would also play a part in this.

I don't know about everyone else; but, in my area, there is no reason for anyone not to be aware of the DTV transition unless they have been living under a rock for the past two years. Yes, there may be people that don't understand the whole DTV thing; but, I don't see how they could not at least be aware of it. During almost every commercial break, there are ad's about the DTV transition and there are crawlers running during regular programming. I've seen several 30 minute infomercials and they bring up the subject every day on the local news.

I can't speak for everyone else on the Magnavox/Funai converter boxes; but, my cousin and sister both have the Magnavox boxes and they have not failed after several months of use. Believe me, I'd know about it if they failed. I will agree that they are about the most user unfriendly box out there; but, they get the job done. I tried to talk my relatives into spending the extra $10 on a better box; but, they are tighter than I am!

I have been remotely involved in the changeover to DTV in the UK, as I have designed some electronics for the head-ends. The situation does seem more orderly there, but there are some major differences.

First, there is still the yearly "tax" payed to the government for each set owned. This can help offset the cost of transition. Their terrestrial DTV is called FreeView and provides a very good assortment of channels. Like someone above mentioned, it's not simply a duplicate of the analog stations, but appears more like a full EPG like that of digital cable or satellite.

Now the big difference. Because of the hilly terrain and the population being spread out in rural areas, early BBC tests showed that much of the population would not be able to receive terrestrial broadcasts. To address this, they also offer FREE satellite on the SKY system. This way the viewer can purchase a terrestrial receiver if they're in a good coverage area, or a satellite receiver if not. Also with the satellite receiver, you can add pay channels on top of the free ones if desired.

I think this latter solution of theirs is the one we are missing here. The BBC did their tests and ensured that EVRYONE had a way to get free digital broadcasts. Our plan 'B' appears to be force people to buy cable or satellite service if they can't receive DTV. While I get good DTV reception where I'm at, I would be quite upset that the percentage of my tax dollars spent on public broadcasting and the FCC which I could take advantage of on analog would simply go away on digital. So what will these people be paying for?

Darryl

In the UK, how much is the tax for each TV set? They have "TV Police" who go around and look for untaxed TV's and the fines are very steep. (like the FCC going around in vans and can tell if there is a TV turned on in a particular house) Do you pay the tax when you buy a TV or who do you go to for this?

I know that you cannot just go buy a car there and go to the courthouse and register it. You have to "bid" on license plates available so no one pays the same and the more desirable ones costing as much as $1500 or more. Also what is the "MOT" tax and is that for everything? Is this correct?

The latest cost of a license is £139.50 for color and £47.00 for B&W. This is handled by the Television Licensing Agency (TVLA). http://www.tv-l.co.uk/

They do take this very seriously, and will prosecute violators. Companies that rent or sell televisions are required to report the customers name to the TVLA within 28 days or face a £1000 fine. Individuals that are caught are typically fined £150 with a maximum of £1000. According to the TVLA, on any particular day, they typically catch about 1200 people!

Because the license fee is a direct cost, I think people in the UK would have been very upset if DTV did not work for them. Unfortunately because it's a buried tax here, people are less likely to get upset. One big hole in the UK scheme is it is assumed that every household needs to pay this tax, so if you truly don't own a television, you can get constantly hassled by the TVLA. Here is an interesting link documenting one persons struggle: http://www.marmalade.net/lime/

I'm not familiar with an MOV tax, so I'll ask a couple of friends in the UK.

Darryl

Some people even here at AK, were talking about hoarding the converter boxes, even if they don't need them! I was totally shocked that someone that doesn't need them wants a few to 'hand around the house'... when the gov't is outta $$ for the coupons.... I wanna slap some people, and you know there will be a few morons trying to make a buck off some old lady that has no converter box in the future... :mad:

The Swedish 1967 roadside transition
 

Hello again,

When I mentioned that transition, I may have stretched the comparison
a bit: after all, the Swedes did not have to modify their cars to get
thru the transition process (they already had left-hand drive cars, they
just had to move to the right hand side of the roads). Regards.

---

[1]:lmao:[2] Okay, I've gone through the emotional states -- anger, depression, whatever -- and have folded the inevitable death of NTSC into my tender ego. I say bring it in on schedule... let's get it over with.

[3] political musings deleted

I agree with Pete

Actually, the digital signals have been available for -years-, about 9 years in the larger metros, and about 5 years everywhere else (exceptions - some PBS stations, stations in very small markets, and independent stations that were handed an out-of-core temporary channel - acknowledged)

This, of course, only further proves your point!

The whole thread should have been titled "Analog may not be leaving soon!".

The statement about people living "more than 20 miles out" being unable to receive DTV is ridiculous. In fact, in most areas (those with full power DTV transmitters), more people -within- 20 miles of the local transmitters will have problems with DTV than those 20-45 miles out (sounds strange, but PM me and I'll elaborate).

As for the problem with the Funai CECB: My Philco works fine for DTV (though the analog pass-through feature is not quite perfect) (also, my Philco is an earlier production model. If the newer boxes have problems cause by trying to meet the increased demand, I'm not aware of it).

I also wonder how the coupon program "ran out of money" so suddenly. The program was supposed to go to a second phase when the money started running low (only one to a household, and ONLY for households that did not have cable nor satellite), which would have greatly increased how long the coupons would be available.

[

Are you thinking of the MOT? That's just a safety inspection.[/QUOTE]

Typo, I meant MOT and is corrected.

I just read another article today about people losing their TV due to the DTV transition. My proposal would be to make the corporations(not taxpayers) who are so interested in the TV spectrum pay for basic satellite for the people cannot receive DTV(due to their location, etc). The payments should continue as long as the non-reception problems of DTV continue. Otherwise, these corporations will be simply stealing ad-supported TV from some viewers. Not fair at all in my opinion.

Still, this does not solve the bad weather issue with DTV (and satellite) that I have seen(even at 30 miles). This is another reason that I think the complete removal of analog TV broadcasting is a bad idea.

As to the 20 mile range, I live at least 30 miles and have no problems(even with the reduced power levels used now) when the weather is good. Even my mother rural Oklahoma (70 miles from the transmitter) can receive some stations in good weather. I am not sure where this idea of a 20 mile limit came from.

As a last note, at my last antique radio convention, I had a discussion with a person who works in the TV transmission industry. He confirms what Robert Grant says about the close-in receivers having more trouble than the receivers farther out.

I have been using a DTV converter for a long time and have no trouble receiving stations from 30+ miles away using my homebrew indoor antenna. I guess location, location, location still matters. But it's certainly not all bad.

Phil Nelson

This is not too far from what they do next door in Delaware. Low number tags can sell for huge money-a 2 digit might bring $75-100K at auction. Last week there was a 91 Dodge pickup in the paper with, I think, a 5-digit tag. You could buy the tag with or without the truck, your choice, for around $1500.

I live just outside greater Cleveland, 33 miles east of the city. The TV and FM transmitters serving Cleveland are perhaps 45 miles southwest of me. Analog reception here is terrible (the analog signal from Cleveland's NBC affiliate on channel 3 does not reach here at all if you are using an antenna), as I've stated before, which is why almost everyone in my small town has either cable or satellite. If analog reception is bad, then it follows that digital reception with antennas will be worse or even non-existent out here, due to digital TV's "all or nothing" nature.

I do not think anyone is going to notice the difference if the digital transition date is pushed back yet again, especially with standard 4:3 aspect ratio analog TVs. The reception on most cable systems (including Time Warner, which serves northeastern Ohio and northwestern Pennsylvania) is very sharp and clear, so the picture almost always looks like a picture postcard on a TV in good working order; it looks like digital already, IMHO. Just about every aspect of most TV stations' operations these days is digital anyway--from the networks to the affiliates, the STL [studio to transmitter] microwave links, the studio and production equipment, et al.--and the stations are already transmitting digital signals alongside the analog ones, so all that is really left is to decide on a firm DTV transition date and stick to it.

There are the occasional, inevitable system glitches that mar or outright eliminate some channels (or disable the entire system in a given area) temporarily, but for the most part cable is very reliable, giving viewers even in far-flung outlying areas city-grade reception "just like downtown", as the expression goes. When the digital transition occurs, whenever that may be, it will mark the beginning of a new era for television. Once the bugs are worked out (reception problems with antennas in bad weather, et al.), it will, IMHO, be an improvement over today's NTSC 4:3 system that will have been well worth waiting for.

In the Friday edition of the Los Angeles Daily News, there's a piece about Obama lobbying to have the deadline pushed back... I have mixed emotions about it. It would be great if they just forget it altogether, but if it's going to happen, let it be like a dental appointment and get it over with so we don't have to look forward to it.

We have bigger fish to fry in the economy, and we can't afford to give everybody free TV converters anyway when we can't even give everybody food & shelter. My mother was a teacher with the Los Angeles Unified School District for several years in the 1960s, and she always puzzled over why some of the poorest people in South Central Los Angeles where she taught, would have no shoes, be malnourished, but when my Mother went on home visits, the family would have a brand-new color TV and a brand-new Cadillac (with empty gas tank). So I guess this is the logic applied in prioritizing the free digital boxes.

Charles