New Member With A Vintage TV
 

I have made my first vintage tv purchase. It is a 1952 Philco console model 52-T2151. The exterior of the tv is in very good condition. I believe it was a one owner tv for all of those years. I plan on using this tv for maybe an average of one to two hours per week. When it comes to vintage tv's, I know VERY little. This is what I do know about the tv. When I turn it on , there is no picture. All of the tubes seem to glow. The picture tube filaments glow. There is no sound to speak of but a low static sound if I turn the volume knob up or down.The high voltage output tube (in the enclosed metal section (p/n) 6BQ6UA was dead ( you could see where it had shorted out inside the tube). I am going to replace the bad tube and see what happens.

Any suggestions on where I should go from here? This is a great looking tv and I hope to keep it for a long time. Thanks in advance for any advice

That's probably one of the Philco split chassis sets. I restored one of those a couple of years ago for someone else and had a surprising number of problems with it, although that can happen with any vintage TV.

Best not to power it up too much before replacing the paper capacitors in the horizontal sweep section. Many folks would also advise replacing all the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply as well before powering up (I don't happen to do it that way myself, but it's important to keep in mind that a shorted electrolytic cap can be hard on your power transformer).

You'll also want to figure out quite early in the process whether your picture tube is good. There are a couple of ways to do that: either use a CRT tester (which can often be obtained for very little money), or repair just enough of the TV's circuitry to get the horizontal sweep and high voltage sections working. Then by checking voltages on the CRT cathode and grids, and observing how bright the raster (or horizontal line if the vertical isn't working yet) you can get an idea.

Finding a replacement CRT or having the old one rebuilt takes a bit of time and money if it turns out that yours is bad. Sometimes that means that a particular set is not the best choice for restoration, depending on sentimental value, how much you like the design, etc.

Feel free to ask lots of questions here as you get started.

Wonder how similar it is to my 52-T1634? :scratch2:


Mine was easy to fix, simple recap and it's still running strong to this day.

I wonder also... I have a '51 with a 16" round tube that has a Power transformer and 2 5U4 rectifiers. My '53 17" rectangular tube Philco has only a small filament transformer, and uses 2 selenium rectifiers in a voltage doubler circuit for the B+...so what does the power supply of a '52 look like?

The split chassis is fun to work on, each side is a very manageable size, and the tube stays in the cabinet.

jr

Welcome ! Neat ol' Philco-An' I think you'll find you're amongst friends here...

Nobody has asked you this yet, but how well are you at getting around electronics? Vintage TV's should be approached with the same basics as with anything else that is of vintage plus there is a whole lot more going on and to be aware of.

If you're comfortable with tube audio and radios and have some experience then all the better, but either way you've come to the right place!

And to elaborate on what Tom had mentioned, instant on-power ups can be fetal for next to impossible to find parts so turn ons are critical at this point and should be avoided as a chassis inspection is in order. Leaky electrolytics, paper capacitors, burnt components are a stopping point and must be remedied before proceeding!

Hopefully, you have a variac or a poor man's version "Dim Bulb" tester!

Error, never mind.

From the tone of his post (referring to the horizontal output tube as the "high voltage output tube", et al.) I'd guess the OP is very new to TV repair and probably should, IMO, leave any service work on his set to a qualified person. Television repair is much more involved than radio or audio servicing; moreover, the high voltages present in a TV set, especially around the CRT (picture tube), can be dangerous or lethal if not approached in the correct manner.

BTW, my best friend's parents' first TV was a split-chassis Philco console similar to the OP's. I never saw their set in operation (I think they retired it and got a new, smaller set when my best friend and I were very small kids, IIRC--I'll have to ask him if he remembers anything about it), but I do remember seeing the set in their garage many years ago. The set is long gone by now, as my friend's parents no longer live in the neighborhood (four houses down the street from where I grew up), but the OP's mention of his split-chassis Philco 21" set immediately rang a bell in my head and sent my mind reeling back at least thirty years.

Ah, memories.

I wonder how many of those split-chassis Philcos were made, in what year, and how reliable they were. Did they have a decent picture? :scratch2: My best friend and I grew up in a far-suburban area for Cleveland TV and if I remember, there was a rather large antenna on the roof of his folks' house (the antenna was VHF only as Cleveland only had channels 3, 5 and 8 at the time, late '50s-early '60s).

Were the split-chassis Philcos' tuners sensitive enough for use in far-suburban to fringe areas? I'm not sure, but I think my friend's folks' set had a 6BQ7 or other type cascode RF amplifier tube in the tuner and at least three video IF stages. However, if it had a garden-variety RF amp tube such as a 6GK5, 6HA5 or other small-signal tube, I can see the need for a large antenna -- sets with this type of low-gain RF amp (compared to cascode RF stages) needed all the incoming signal they could get, especially in moderate to weak signal areas. I live in an area of northeastern Ohio which is located some 35 miles from Cleveland and at least 40 miles from most of the area's television transmitters; I bet there were a lot of TV sets around here in the '50s-'60s, Philcos and other makes, with cascode RF stages (to say nothing of large near-fringe-area antennas on rooftops, some of which are still standing but falling apart), as the TV signals here are nowhere near city grade, especially in these days of all-digital TV; in fact, they never were, even when TV was all analog (the entire village is wired for cable, and just about everyone here has it or satellite).

My 1951 16" Philco uses a 6CB5 rf while the 1953 17" set uses a 6BQ7. Both have 4 video IF stages... the 1953 set is noticeably more sensitive than the 1951 and was a decent fringe area/Dxing set.

jr

I do believe that my '52 Philco 52-T2151 may be a split chassis. I don't know of a vintage tv repair person in my area (norfolk va.) so would it be feasible to send one section of the split chassis at a time to someone who repairs vintage sets and have him check all of the tubes and the overall condition of that section of the chassis? Is it difficult to find a crt tester with a connector that will fit my picture tube?

Mine has all the low and high voltage stuff on one chassis (sweep chassis), while the audio and video circuits are on the other smaller one. My B+ supply has 3 5Y3GT rectifiers, high voltage is provided by a pair of 6BQ6GT's running in parallel to drive the flyback, rectifiers are 1X2's. Audio is an SE 6V6GT, and I have only the video output tube running since on air stuff dried up. I just route composite signals right to the vid tube grid, it works great.


There's a rebuild thread on ARF: http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/...014&highlight=


http://myweb.msoe.edu/williamstm/Images/Philco_4.jpg

http://myweb.msoe.edu/williamstm/Images/Philco_1.jpg

Wow, they really simplified the 52 model compared to the 51. Smaller RF/IF chassis, and the horizontal oscillator circuitry is not wired on the outside front of the high voltage cage. They probably got the cost down, and hopefully made it more reliable.

Yeah, it's really easy to work on too. Only problem I've ever had with it is the B+ supply for the tuner/audio sections- a resistor that's rivited to the chassis decided to short to ground one day, which took out the focus pot partially. I replaced it with a sand resistor, and it's been a strong runner ever since. Anyone have a replacement focus pot? :scratch2:

Only thing I'd really still like to do to it is redag the CRT, since the HT has a bit of a ripple to it. A refurb cabinet would be nice too, but the set just isn't worth anything so I guess it stays the way it is. Good thing it has a razor sharp picture and a strong CRT, I'd have binned it a long time ago. :smoke:

For grins, I have posted a picture of my '51 Philco chassis. Although these early Philcos are fairly common and perhaps not worth the "big bucks" yet , I think they are quite worth collecting! :yes:
Mine occupies a fairly choice spot in my "TV room".

jr

Edit add "Anyone have a replacement focus pot?" Strange, both my '51 and '53 models have permanent magnet focus! Indeed the chassis resistor on my '51 failed, but did not destroy any other parts...weak point for these sets?

Hi jr,

That's the exact 1951 model that I spent so much quality time with for a customer. Got it back several times to fix new problems that came up every few months after it was first restored. After several follow-up repairs, it seems to have stabilized in a good state.

The one I restored had magnetic focus too. I believe it was model 51T-1634. Nice set with a good sharp picture and a nice cabinet design.

Say, if you need to free up some space in your TV room, you can send me that one just to the right of the Philco. That would free up a lot of space for you. Pretty small screen for such a large cabinet anyway.

"Is it difficult to find a crt tester with a connector that will fit my picture tube? "

No, I got a B&K 400 on eBay several years ago for cheap...I think the shipping was more than the tester. Not the best, but it works! I would not recommend using the rejuvenate function on this tester (kills tubes :tears:)

"That's the exact 1951 model that I spent so much quality time with for a customer. Got it back several times to fix new problems that came up every few months after it was first restored. After several follow-up repairs, it seems to have stabilized in a good state."

Mine has been quite reliable, and has been "repaired" over the years and never "restored"... This was a set that I have owned since I was a youngster, living in my parents' house...45 years or so.

"Say, if you need to free up some space in your TV room, you can send me that one just to the right of the Philco. That would free up a lot of space for you. Pretty small screen for such a large cabinet anyway."

Ya, and the darn thing does not even light up anymore...what a waste of $35! :D

For more grins, I have posted a shot of a '53 split chassis Philco 17"... It looks a bit more complicated because it has a UHF tuner in the center, but it is indeed, a simplification from the '52 sets. Note the selenium rectifiers (still working BTW) and lack of power transformer. This was the first set my in-laws purchased about 2 months after TV arrived in our area!

jr

Pictures Of My Philco 52-T2151
 

Here are a few pictures of my '52 Philco. Attachment 166968

Attachment 166969

Attachment 166970

Attachment 166971

Attachment 166972

Attachment 166973

Looks a lot like the one jr posted...
I like it!

Here's my 53 with a split chassis, I also have a 1951 17" tabletop with the split chassis.

I actually think it's a bit more trouble to work on these because you have to deal with two pieces and plug and unplug them as you work on them.

My set has worked reliably for hours at a time since I recapped it about 8 years ago, though it seldom gets turned on these days.


http://www.vintagetvsets.com/images/philcof1.jpg

No, it would be impossible to repair it that way because you need both halves to power it up and test things, also you would need the yoke that's attached to the CRT neck.

Also repairing these things long distance is an iffy proposition at best, it's time consuming enough trying to fine tune everything when you have the set right in front of you much less shipping it back and forth!
Some last little problem always seems to pop up at the last minute requiring more work.

I do believe if you can operate a screwdriver and a soldering iron though you can learn to do this yourself, hang around, read and watch and soon you'll want to dig in and try your hand at fixing it.
It's a good set to start with, not too complicated and common enough to be able to find parts for in most cases.

'52 Philco in natural setting
 

'52 Philco in natural setting
A set like this shows up in some Christmas photos being sold on eBay (I am not affiliated)... some years it is in the corner, some years in the archway....In 1964, it appears that it was replaced by a color roundie.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories

Sample photo posted.

Thanks For The Advice
 

I just wanted to say I appreciate the advice on repairing my '52 philco.
I am going to try and learn as much as I can from this forum and hope to get a picture on my set eventually. I want to keep this tv for a long time so be prepared for more questions! Thanks Again.

its worth the effort to learn, just take your time and as others have said, hang around, read,read, read. It's a lot of fun.

You also might find some assistance from members of a vintage radio club in your area...many members may also do TVs, have parts and test equipment. Most have fine "swap meets".:yes:

Virginia Tidewater Antique Radio Association (TARA)
Phil Stroud,
2328 Springfield Ave.
Norfolk, VA 23523

Radio History Society, Inc. (RHS)
Steve Snyderman
4147 Lenox Dr.
Fairfax, VA 22032.
Dues: $15.00 and up (various membership levels).

From: http://www.grillecloth.com/other/clubusa.php#va

jr

Now What?
 

I replaced the one tube that wasn't "glowing" in my '52 Philco, tube # 6BQ6UA.
It was one of two tubes inside a metal box. I took a chance and turned the tv on after I replaced the tube. The good news is that I have some sort of pattern on the screen so I guess the crt works. I have enclosed a picture because I don't know what to make of the image on the screen . Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



Attachment 167043

Weak vertical oscillator and vertical output tubes, and failure of many of the parts around these two tubes could cause the display to look like this. A few month ago, I had a similar problem on my '51 set, I tested the vertical tubes, and they seemed to be ok, so I replaced all the caps in the vertical circuit, checked resistors and replaced a few that were out of spec... nothing changed.... finally bought a couple of NOS (new old stock) tubes on eBay (these were odd tubes, 6s4 and 7n7 that I did not have in my stock) and they fixed he problem.

Do you have any sound? or "Hum" in the audio?

jr

Yes, there is a "hum" sound and I noticed that when I try to adjust the horizontal knob on the front of the tv it does nothing to the image on the screen but when I try the vertical knob it stretches or shrinks the image that is on the screen somewhat.

A barely audible hum with the volume control turned all the way up is normal... If it is fairly loud even with the volume turned down, it is an indication that the electrolytic filter caps should be replaced. The "height" and "vertical linearity" controls on the back of the set will likely change the height of the image as well.

jr

Like jr said, you have a vertical problem. That 6BQ6 you replaced was the horizontal output, and by the look of it that one swap gave you some decent HV! Wish it would have been that simple on mine. Check the vertical circuit tubes, make sure they are good. If they are, start replacing bad capacitors. My set mad a whole slew of bad molded caps, even micas that supposedly don't go bad. If that's not it, the yoke or vertical output transformer may be bad.

jr: I had a bad 7N7 in my set as well, one of the triodes was dead even though the filament still glowed. If you don't like searching for those loctal tubes, you can do like I did and swap to the octal (and much easier to find) 6SN7. They are identical electrically.

Don't run it like that anymore and turn down the brightness control! The horizontal and flyback as well as the crt looks promising which is good news, and you're hearing some audio output. But at this point it's time to pull the chassis's and recap and check for out of tolerance resistors.

Do the power supply and the vertical circuits, and you need to look over the horizontal circuits also to avoid any mishaps. You've got a good starting point to keep you busy on. Next time you turn it on could be fatal.

Hopefully, at this point you have the schematic?

I watch my 52 Philco more than any set. Very reliable performer and with the help of the good people here, I have learned my way around these old sets. Welcome to the site and you have a very nicely preserved example in your Philco.

It needs recapped at least, the tube looks good and bright but as Marty said keep the brightness down when it's like that.

The only concern I have is it looks slightly Keystoned, a sign of a possible bad Yoke, that probably wouldn't be too hard to find for this set however.

Philco loved those old "Black Beauty" capacitors, black plastic with colored bands on them, they are notorious for going bad, as are pretty much all paper caps from the era.

Was Hoping One Bad Tube Would Fix It
 

I removed the vertical osc. tube 6SN7GT and the vertical output tube 6AH4GT and had them both tested . The 6AH4GT tested fine but the 6SN7GT was below minimum output and was shorting out intermittently. I thought just maybe,just maybes would solve the problem and I would get "snow" on the screen . My luck ran out when I turned the tv on. I have the same basic pattern that I did before. What should I do next, check/replace capacitors? Thanks in advance for any input. Attachment 167099

Attachment 167100

Attachment 167101 thi

for starters you still need to turn the brightness down berore you burn the screen.

If it has paper caps you will need to replace them, no point in trying it any more until you do that. Next would be to check the electros esp any that are cathode bypass in the vert osc circuit.

You could also check for continuity of the yoke and windings of the vert out transformer, but paper caps are 1st.

Agree, and be sure to use extreme caution when you remove the right chassis... the crt can retain a high voltage charge for days after the set has been turned off! Ground the HV wire that is connected to the CRT to a wire connected to the chassis before you attempt to remove it.

How are your soldering and schematic reading skills?
jr

good point, need to know your skill set before you start messing about.

grounding the anode is important, and also recoginize there are lethal voltages in other areas.

I would replace that 6SN7 tube, as it is obviously defective if its output is well below normal and is intermittently shorting. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that brought your picture back, although I would check every capacitor in the vertical circuit--in a set as old as yours, there are bound to be more than a few defective ones.

BTW, for replacement tubes, I've had good luck with John Kendall's Vintage Electronics: www.vintage-electronics.com. He has literally thousands of tubes in stock at his warehouse in suburban Baltimore, and they are very reasonably priced. The only thing I would watch is the shipping charges on these tubes. Although the tubes themselves are bargains, the shipping will add another few dollars to the total, depending on where you live. I'm in a small town some 35 miles from Cleveland; the shipping charges to my home for a tube I recently purchased from Vintage Electronics were on the order of, IIRC, $8-$10 or so. The tube itself only cost $2.25. There are other sources for used and NOS (new old stock) tubes as well, some of which may give you a better deal on shipping; Vintage Electronics is just a starting point.

Thanks for the warning
 

I would say my soldering skills are good. Reading schematics is average. Thanks for the warnings about being zapped. I will use extreme caution. Although it may not look like it, the brightness is turned all the way down. I think it is the cell phone camera I am using. I will start replacing all of the paper capacitors and continue from there. With the help of everyone here I'm sure I will get this old tv running again.:thmbsp:

yep, 9 times out of 10 the paper caps will get it going, keep us posted.

Basic TV safety (maybe we should have sticky for this, guys?)

* If it's not line isolated - use an isolation transformer!

* Watch the CRT - the neck is fragile and old CRTs don't have the safety feature of new ones - glass can really fly if they pop.

* The high voltage 'suction cup' and horizontal sweep section - nasty when on, can hold a bad charge when off. Once unplugged, a screwdriver grounded to the chassis can be slipped under there, it'll make a little *pop* then it's safer. Touch under the cup and any other points in the HV box before going in there.

* NEVER measure the horizontal output tube plate voltage - there's a multi thousand volt pulse present on it.

* Don't try to look in the dark to see if the 1B3 lights up. It doesn't. Yours is fine.

* The vertical section may operate at elevated voltages, also.

* Be wary of electrolytic cans mounted on insulating wafer mounts - they may be at higher than ground voltage. Maybe they had a cover, maybe they didn't.

* Some CRTs have metal cones. The cone will be at high voltage while the set is operating. Even with an insulation apron over it, avoid touching.

* The insulation on the HV lead, and in the HV box won't prevent a shock. Just don't touch those areas!

* The 'lower' B+ voltages can have upwards of 1/2 an amp to back them up! They're just as nasty as the high voltage.

As always, the safest route is to turn off, unplug, and touch a grounded screwdriver lightly around the areas where you'll be working. Some sets can work with the horizontal output tube pulled out (or the fuse removed), but not all. This reduces the high voltage danger from the sweep sections greatly.