Westinghouse 17TV7C
 

This was a restoration project I started to run into troubles with. I was recommended here from another corner of the web. :D

The set was picked up from the side of the road with a FREE sign on it.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0708.jpg

Never seen that much hardwood on a TV before. It's a combo unit too. TV, AM radio and record player. A stamp on the chassis says it was built April 28 1953. Both the cabinet and the chassis were built in Canada so it's no doubt this puts the set right when my grandfather used to service Westinghouse appliances.
The cabinet looks really bad but for the most part it was just the sun that did most of the damage. The stain on any exposed part rubs off your hand, that gasket hanging down is solid as a rock. the speaker grille fabric has been essentially bleached white and the tuning knob is clouding up.
Picture tube visually looks okay but we'll have ti find out later what all those years int he sun might of done to the phosphors.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0709.jpg
The record player was seized up and very dirty when I received it. There was also oddly a lack of bolts and screws. Everything was either missing or mismatched.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0724.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0715.jpg

The chassis looks okay. There wasn't a whole lot of dirt on it. The anode cable was hanging out of the H/V cage so the solder joint on the 8016's socket went bad. I'll have to run all the tubes through the checker though. The capacitors on the other hand are definitely in need of attention. I'll put it aside until the cabinet is repaired.

Anyways, so the cabinet needed a recoat. I sanded it down to bare wood and restained with several coats with the closest tint I could find. I think I settled on red Mahogany. I spent several days trying to source a new and identical replacement to the fabric but eventually I had to admit defeat and bought half a meter of the closest thing that they would of put on a TV in the 50's.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0714.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0728.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0733.jpg
(I sure hope I have not made any mistakes yet. I've heard stories about botched restorations and people screaming sacrilege over it. I'm trying the best I can.)

The cabinet is almost restored however I'm having trouble with one of the extra pieces of detail. There used to be horizontal gold stripes and lettering and I'm not entirely sure how to reapply either. It wasn't the kind of thing I could sand around either. so I need ideas on how to paint it back on. Any of the old folks here have any secrets?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0713.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0723.jpg

I also spent a bit of time cleaning up the record player. It all freed up with 3-in-1 and grease but the friction wheel was totally dead. I was able to replace it with a rubber O-ring but there's a problem with traction. None of the speeds are correct and the automatic arm loading/unloading is enough to completely bog down the turntable. Any ideas there for better traction?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0717.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0719.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0720.jpg

There's also other random bits and pieces that need attention. I'm missing several knobs and have no idea where to find replacements.
Another thing I'm concerned about is the decal inside the glass. IS there anything I should brush on it to prevent it from flaking off?

Glad you joined. :) Hopefully someone here can help you.

For the lines, as I recommended the other day, maybe a straight ruler and some gold paint on a fine pointed brush may help, but hopefully someone else will chip in with ideas. The woodworking has come along real nicely so far!

nice work on the cabinet ,i like the replacement speaker cloth better than the orginal.

or a straightedge with a gold paint pen from a craft store.

RE: Gold Lines

Cover the area entirely with the best "no bleed" masking tape available. Then take a straight edge and an exacto knife and cut through the masking tape and peal off the tape to create lines and expose the wood underneath. Then mask off the rest of the set with paper and masking tape to prevent overspray and use gold spray paint in a can to paint the gold lines. This is pretty much the same method that is used to paint graphic designs like racing stripes on a car.

Any tips on making the thickness the same for each line or is that just a good ruler?

On the turntable. I think the O-ring will work but it is just to slick. Use sand paper 300g or an emery board to rough it up and I bet it works just fine.

Great job so far. Old westy's should be saved whenever possible. that cabinet looks great! Add a coat of lacquer and it would look like original, but new.

Im sure have the schematic diagram for that TV. I will need the model number and if its a different number for Canadian Westinghouse,
I might need to see a photo of the tube chart from inside the cabinet to match up.

Also helpful: the chassis number, is a V followed by four numbers.

There's two stickers marked CHASSIS No: 99423 and 69436 plus a bunch of ink stamped stuff that looks like QA steps but otherwise there's nothing close to what you speak of. Neither is there any mention on the tube chart.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0726.jpg

I like how the 1N60, which is a solid state diode, is listed in the tube chart such that the average Joe would not know that it is not a tube...

That photo is very helpful but the numbers are strictly Canadian Westinghouse.
I will look at the tube chart and likely find a matching set with an H-prefix model number

Very nice restoration on the cabinet. love this tv.. Lucky man !...

Sorry for the lack of real updates. Work keeps me on my toes a lot (as does photography, videography, vintage computers and oh god I have way too many hobbies) so I can't regularly keep my hands on a project. Don't worry though, I'll give a nice update when I get the time in the next few days. ;)
I did however start looking up a place to source new capacitors. Should I keep with more traditional looking caps or upgrade to more modern lytic and plastic film? Also, any ideas for the lettering yet? I tried making a stencil with a laser printer and xacto knife but wasn't happy with the result.

So far so good on the restoration.
Addressing the gold stripes. If you are not comfortable doing this yourself, I would suggest an auto customizing shop and find the guy that does the pin stripping. I believe you can find the appropriate decals for the lettering on line i.e.: http://www.radiodaze.com/product/6078.aspx

-Steve D.

I don't know what you mean by traditional looking, but nobody has made old-fashioned paper or "bumblebee" caps in years (and that's a good thing, since those caps were junk). This article has a lot of information about recapping:

http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm

Two good sources for caps are http://www.mouser.com/ and http://www.justradios.com/ .

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Actually, Gibson still makes (sort of) black beauty capacitors. Check out the link and the price: http://store.gibson.com/capacitors/ I still have trouble believing that someone isn't pulling our leg on this one.

well, the world is crazy !...129 dollars aie aie !....and this is not related tv stuff...

Well, if you look at the tube chart and at the underside of the chassis, you will see that it is mounted in a tube socket!

If you look at the top of the chassis, you will see a tube shield!

Jas.

And if you were to pop that shield off....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/IMG_6355.jpg

I wonder if they're actually foil/paper or just slightly leaky (reject?) modern ones that are repackaged? The again... if the audiophools are willing to pay for it...

Well, there's something I've never seen before...Weird.

I'm too awful with lines so I seeked the professional work of my mom who learned how to do this kind of stuff since the 70's. The solution was as simple as a ruler, pencil and a gold pen. Goes on easily and gives the same appearance as if I sprayed it on but with far less prep work needed. Also easier to clean up of there is a mistake.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0739.jpg

Okay, I'm not going to lie. The straight lines really show how badly the letrasetting was done. It can be fixed but seeing as there's a thin layer of varnish brushed over to prevent accidental scrapes it will take some effort. From a distance it looks better and you're probably going to view this from across a room so we'll let this pass.
Meanwhile I've taken the glass pane and applied a thin layer of glaze as to reseal the painted surface. It qoes on opaque but dries clear. Once this has dried I will reassemble the cabinet completely and proceed to the chassis.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0740.jpg

I have found no suitable material to replace the old bezel gasket. At this point I'm considering reassembing the set without it.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0712.jpg
Also yes, the gasket has hardened into that shape.

I did however find a suitable replacement for the green matting that was behind the AM tuning needle. Michael's had thin sheets of adhesive backed felt that I could cut to size and mount in place of the old sun damaged material. It's still thicker than the original material but it doesn't interfere with the needle.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0730.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0731.jpg

Edited:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harr...d-facepalm.jpg
Look closely at the old stripes and then count my new ones. I don't know how I fudged it but there's now nine lines instead of eight. Oh well. Lets just say they were always there.

Not a bad job with the gold stripping and the general refinishing of the cabinet as well as re-lettering the control label. Seems to me the gasket is pretty much intact and w/the grooves can be carefully reattached to the mask as seen in the original photo. You might install the gasket upside down and have the rejoined ends at the bottom. Wishing you success as you tackle the chassis.

-Steve D.

For the phono's drive wheel, Terry's Rubber Rollers can likely get you an exact one, esp if the changer is a common (VM, or such) type. That guy does amazing work!

I reassembled the cabinet today so that part is finally done.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0809.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/IMG_6383.jpg

I wouldn't have the faintest idea where to lookup my phonograph to confirm exactly what series it is.

Anyways, now we can focus on the chassis. I know the local electronics shop here doesn't have any of the caps I need so I'll collect a parts list and when I'm down in Vancouver next week I can drop by Main Electronics which is probably the best electronics shop in British Columbia. They even have a tube tester! For now however I'll clean and test the tubes on my own bench and work on buffing up the chassis.

Oh shoot.
Before I removed the picture tube I marked the location of the ion trap and totally forgot the marking was there when I cleaned the neck and it rubbed off. A previous photo gives me a vague idea where it used to be but does it need to be precisely positioned or can a rough replacement using the image above be fine?
I've also ordered in a new set of caps. With the exception of a 475v 20mfd cap that we could not find an immediate replacement for and and a few others had to be substituted with slightly higher voltages. I'll start the recap the next time I get some time off.
I alos had to put my tube checker on loan for a few months along with my stockpile of tubes so we'll have to hope that everything is fine and dandy when I bring the set up on the variac.

Once you get the raster back, just tweak the trap for maximum brightness consistent with no neck shadow.

Ran out of solder and capacitors. I swear I ordered enough......:dammit:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/IMG_6440.jpg

I'll have to order the rest in, otherwise the job so far has not been too painful. Again, I'm leaving the original red Sangamo caps because I've been told they aren't as prone to age related failure.
While I'm on the bench, does anyone know which pin is CRT anode output on the 1B3GT so I can reattach the cable?

Looks like a VM changer, youl should be able to match the idler to the pictures and dimensions on the VM website. The VM site also tells you how to look for the number of your changer. If the idler does not seem to be getting enough traction, often theres old hardened grease thats causing the drag on the motor to be too high.

Nice save and restore !

Awesome restore MIPS!
i have the original canadian service info for this set if you still need it.
pm me your email and i can scan and send over the next few days.
have a good one,
RonL

Hi Mips.
Got your pm-will scan info and try the "dropbox" site to get info to you.
also, Main electronics might still have the "tire" you need for your turntable.
also you asked "does anyone know which pin is CRT anode output on the 1B3GT so I can reattach the cable?" it goes to pin 7 of the 1b3 hv rectifier.
ill get the scans done over the weekend
cheers,
RonL

Hi Mips.
data emailed to you a few min ago.-let me know if you need higher res for the schematic portion.
have a good one,
RonL

Thanks ronl, I checked my email today and I saw it in my inbox. This will be quite helpful.

there is nothing more satisfying than to take something that most people would consider trash and ,look at it and see what it could be in your mind, then slowly bring it back to a condition better than it was when it was new. great job

Okay, so I've ran into substitution and sourcing said substitutes.
There's still three caps left in the set

-475v 20uf
-400v .5uf
-600v .033uf

I've been talking to a few friends about replacements and we agreed that no exact values could be affordably found so we looked into substituting with the following:

-22uf 475v
-470nf 400v
-33nf 600v

I can source the latter two caps here and here but I'm still having trouble with the 22uf cap.
I'm also unable to source three more cheap 600v .01 orange drops. They were cheap at Main Electronics but they don't ship orders under $25 so again I'm forced to buy online where the cheapest cost so far I've found was $10 for one. :/
Unless I can figure out this cap issue the whole project is suspended until I can get back down to Vancouver.

Hey MIPS,
those caps should do the trick, most tube gear can handle up to 20% tolerance so you should be good.
RonL

Woo, progress! Recap has been completed.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0904.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0905.jpg

The multi-cap cans are still there but I"m not touching those until I'm positive they have problems. I don't even know where to start on figuring out how their pin arrangement works.

All but two tubes have been checked on my Sencore. A number of them gave weak emissions but improved after a few minutes of cooking. I did however find a 6BE6 that had good emissions and life test but was pegged on BAD on grid leakage (once warm it crawls up and pegs, not an immediate swing-to-peg). I also have a 6W6GT but my setup chart only showed the 6W6. Are these two compatible for testing? The other tube not checked was the IB3GT which on inspection had a cloudy glass envelope near the base. Unsure if it's a manufacturing defect or sign the tube gassed. I could not get the Sencore to give any reading with it plugged in but I'm aware these tubes don't really work in most testers because of their design so if it works it works, else I have replacements for it and the 6BE6.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0907.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0908.jpg

The only other thing I did tonight was reconnect the anode cable. It's pin 7 on the IB3GT but the socket is confusing because pin 7 for some wild reason also has a lead which makes the socket base and the support live with a few thousand volts. It's isolated form the chassis by a ceramic tube buy why would they of done this?
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...y/CGS_0909.jpg

Now that everything seems good it's time to attach the variac and lightbulb and see if it wakes up gracefully. The issue however is that my variac is only rated for 1A (what an amazing chinese product) so I would rather not push it past 2A so I want to limit the current I want to keep the CRT out and kill the high voltage. Any ideas on how to quickly cut that for now?

One last thing. Four of the pots on the front and rear of the chassis won't free up. I've gone at them with penetrating oil and WD 40 but only one other pot freed up. Should I dismantle and clean these old ones or replace them?

The cans usually list the values and each value is marked with a little symbol (triangle, square, circle). There are little matching symbols on the bottom next to the lead for each cap. There will also be a common ground lead, usually unmarked. The schematic often shows those caps in its parts list, with a little symbol next to each one (triangle, etc.), so that you know which one is C2 or whatever. Of course, you can also figure out which lead is which by tracing the lead to see where it connects, and looking at the schematic.

This article has more information about replacing can electrolytics, with links to other articles that illustrate various methods:

http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm

In my experience, leaving those old electrolytics in place is not a good idea for the long term. They can fail at any time without warning, even if they seem to function now.

You have nothing to lose by taking the pots apart and trying to clean them.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

My best guess for the 1B3 socket is either the ceramic tube isn't original and you were supposed to have a doorknob cap there, or the ceramic tube IS original and the metal all being at high voltage reduces corona losses...