Crosley 9-413B Horizontal Issue
 

Hi everybody,

Got the Crosley in a blonde cabinet in good shape. New old stock tubes in the set. I've adjusted the horizontal hold through the range but this crosshatch pattern won't lock up clear. Fuzzy focus is the camera. I've adjusted the linearity just a little with no difference. It has trimmers for horizontal frequency, drive and lock but I haven't touched them. Last time I had an issue like this, it was suggested the horizontal frequency was way off. What do you guys think???

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.

It does look like the horizontal frequency is way off but maybe rule out other things in the horizontal first.

Here we go...let's see if this is a better view

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3152/ne975m.jpg

Hoz freq is off a little. Try the tube 1st no matter what a checker say.
HINT if you adjust coils or caps FLAG the tool with a piece of tape
so you can return to the start. After that look at the caps & test resistors.
When fixed the customer H hold should be apx half range.

BTW this is VERY common after a recap. Set works- recap- H osc off.

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

I've tried tube changes several times. I checked all of the resistors in both the horizontal and vertical circuits and replaced the ones that were even close to being out of spec. The caps have all been replaced and I even pulled the mica caps and tested them. Most were OK but the ones off value and leaky were replaced with 1% mica caps of the same value. I don't think this is component based...it's adjustment based and I've been trying for days. Does anyone know where to start other than the horizontal hold control set to the middle? I have the Riders service manual that gives a great description as to what the drive and lock in the circuit do but there's no technique described as to how to start the process of dialing in the horizontal from jump. I followed the Sams description of oscillator and lock setup but to no avail.

I’ll have to go through the horizontal circuit again and make sure I didn’t make a cap replacement mistake. I’ve been mostly checking and checking resistors. I should make sure I didn’t replace a 0.022 with a 0.0022 etc.

Did you power up the set on a variac or dim bulb before re-capping to observe the operation (if any) of the sweep circuits?

jr

No I didn't. I should have after I replaced the electrolytics but I did not. :nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono:

Looks like you just need to tweak the hor freq trimmer. Nothing magical about it. Adjust until the picture locks.

Agree with the comments above. For example, I restored an RCA 630TS recently and the horizontal looked the same. There was evidence of work around the horizontal frequency transformer, called "Horizontal Frequency" on the rear apron. "Could it be that simple?" It was. apparently in the past, the transformer had been cranked way far away to compensate for a failing component (no doubt, a capacitor). Turning it slowly, the lines became less and less and voila, a stable picture. The procedure was to center the Horizontal Hold Control and then adjust the Horizontal Frequency for a stable picture.

So, I bet that is all that you need to do. Please, let us know!

Been trying. One of the issues is the Crosley has a continuous induction tuner like the Dumont sets of the era so I can never tell if I’m exactly on the station. I’ve run the frequency trimmer all the way in and out. I know this is a question that will show the huge gaps in my experience but is there a frequency I can measure and shoot for? How much range does a typical trimmer have?

15,750 Hz. Couldn't say how much range with your design.The trimmer is likely in parallel with a fixed cap. That cap might be too far off for the trimmer to compensate.

Ok I’ll check the frequency and the cap

I have a cbs Columbia and recapped the whole set and was left with a horizontal problem where the screen would look like yours and can’t adjust it when it does this and I have yet to get back into it so I looked at the schematic and got all the micas and ceramic disc caps for when I get back in it I’m sure it’s one of these components and micas do go bad.

Does the trace look OK (like I know what I'm doing!:scratch2::scratch2:)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7404/BlRxqM.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1413/MqqlpA.jpg

It looks like the picture is getting somewhat better

Looking better. Where do you have your scope connected? Service info doesn't show waveforms so I couldn't say if it is correct.

Sams here for free: https://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/..._sams_79-4.pdf

and Riders: https://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/...03_rider_3.pdf

B2 sets the frequency and is not in parallel with a fixed cap. I'd definitely check all the associated resistors and caps in that circuit if you're still not able to get a lock. Don't trust those 220pF mica caps.

They’ve been replaced with new 1% mica caps of the same value.

Thanks so much for the links. I’ll go through the resistors comprehensively with the schematic from beginning to end but I have checked most of them and replaced anything that was out of spec. Every cap in the tv has been replaced and all of the micas in the deflection circuits with exact value replacements.

The Riders has some great information on the specifics of the horizontal and vertical circuits including the components responsible for the sequential processing of the oscillator voltage in both. I just wish I could read the schematic! It's very blurry and the part designations are different from the readable Sams. It is, however, a great description of what happens in these circuits for a newbie like me.

I would double check solder connections in and around anything horizontal if there is a joint that didn’t take it could be very annoying to back track to find but worth it if you find one.

Ahhhh...you know the quality of my soldering well!!!:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

No it’s not that I have made many mistakes and then having to go back and look over what I did and yes found many dumb mistakes I have made.

can't be THAT bad, I mean, you are not like this person, are you?:D
https://i0.wp.com/makezine.com/wp-co...ng?w=848&ssl=1

Lol well he is probing for a problem

When you replaced every resistor and capacitor with the exact value, maybe the set was adjusted in the past for a failing component and is therefore way out of adjustment.

I hate to beat a dead horse but I was lucky to find a simple problem in my RCA 630TS where the horizontal was way off frequency. I found the Horiz Freq transformer cranked all the way to one end, probably to compensate for failing components. When I put new, on value parts in, the adjustments were rock solid and in the middle of the range.

Just a thought.

Absolutely! It's unusual to NOT need to make adjustments after recapping.

The original Riders hardcopy is hard to read as well. Best we have unless someone has an original Crosley service manual.

I had my scope connected right after the horizontal frequency trimmer. Probably the wrong spot but I do have a sawtooth at 15.75 kHz

The horizontal frequency is actually 15,734.26573426573 Hz. Or rounded off 15.73 kHz

To calculate the horizontal frequency:

4,500,000 ÷ 15,750 = 285.7142857142857

Round up to 286:

4,500,000 ÷ 286 = 15,734.2657....

The reason? When over 70 years ago NTSC color was being formulated, to minimize a beat interference between the FM sound carrier at 4,500,000 Hz and the color subcarrier nominally at 3.58MHz, the original horizontal sweep frequency was shifted slightly to ensure the sound carrier was an exact integer multiple of the horizontal frequency. The sound carrier could have shifted instead but the concern was that the millions of intercarrier sound TVs would require minor realignment.

The color subcarrier therefore will be 455 times half the new horizontal frequency to minimize beating with the sound carrier:

15,734.265734426573 ÷ 2 X 455 = 3,579,545.454545455 Hz

Stated as a rational number rather than a repeating decimal, the color subcarrier frequency is
3579545 + 5/11 Hz
5/11 = 0.45454545...

This comes about because of the prime factors of 455. 455 was chosen instead of some close possible numbers because it is the product of some fairly small prime numbers. Each counter stage dividing by a fairly small number meant that the tube frequency dividers of the time were less likely to drift out of tolerance enough to cause a wrong count.