My $5 Find
 

Hey guys, I was so excited when I just found this beauty in the basement at an Estate Sale, its my first vintage 50's color set! And all this for $5.00 no less!

Looks like I'm going to have to start studing all about color circuits to get this CTC9 rebuilt, its the "Windslow" model from 1959.

Wow! Wanna make an instant profit of 10 dB? :) That's a superb score. Nobody ever gets that lucky. BTW, what are those round screen sets in the background?

Rob

Rob,

Those are early experimental Westinghouse color prototypes from 1951. The screens are tilted upward to avoid reflecting room lights at the viewer. ;)

Well with the back off the CTC-9 I see it looks pretty good in there. If found a repair slip inside and apparently the picture tube was replaced on 4/22/6??? with a 21FBP22 (I wish I could see that last and most important of all digits). I know this tube doesn't have the deep reds like the original 21CYP22 :( but looking on the bright side this tube might have 5 to 10 years less life on it. :)

A question for you guys, there are these maroon colored plastic capacitors on all over the top of the chassis, are these simply paper caps in disguise or are these more reliable like vintage versions of orange drops?

I will start with replacing all the electrolytics before I attempt any to apply any power.


By the way, the two sets in the background of the picture on top are my round-screen 1955 Westinghouse Laundomat Twins. I had to replace a tube or two to bring those babies back to full working order. :D

That cap you illustrated appears to be Mylar--I personally have not had any trouble with caps like that.

ctc 9
 

i have the exact same set. i replaced all the electrolytics. there is a paper moulded cap ( black with stripes) on the horizontal board that will have to be changed and also one on the ac input. mine also had the crt replaced in 1966. mine has a great picture. there is also a 2mfd at 350volt cap on the video board that will need replaced also. resolder all the board to chassis ground connections they all seem to break loose. steve

Roundscreen washers
 

As someone who appreciates vintage appliances, (I have a Kenmore fridge and stove that have been in daily use since 1965!) I wanted to add a round-screen TV/Washer story....

Ever see the B&W Christmas episode of the Beverly Hillbillies where Mr. Drysdale buys the family a round-screen TV set as a gift? Everytime they turn it on it shows water (ocean), since they don't know what it is, Granny thinks it's one of those new-fangled clothes washers.

Or am I the only one who remembers this?

It was the 21CYP22 that had the orange looking red phosphor. This phosphor was inefficient, which required that the red gun be driven harder. Often when a 21CYP22 goes bad, it is the red gun that fails. This was fixed in 1961 with the 21FBP22, which used a new red phosphor that was really red, and with beam currents approximately equal in all 3 guns.

Look at the type number on your tube. If it is a 21FBP22-A, it was made sometime after 1964 and has a rare earth red phosphor, which is even better than the 1961 version.

Thanks for the advice Rcaman I will start with replacing the electrolytics and those paper caps and see what happens after I power it up. Before I do anything I'm going to do a bit of studying on color circuit theory and learn about the mechanics of color picture tubes.


I've never seen that episode of the Beverly Hillbillies Carmine, but I would love to find it someday. As a collector/restorer of both vintage television sets and vintage automatic washers that episode would sort of morph both of my passions into one.


Hey Bill, thanks for correcting my assumptions about the reds of the 21FBP22, I've read so much about vintage television servicing over the past six months that its all mixing together in my head! Anyway I just went downstairs and took a good look at that tube, there is a sticker on it that says its a HR21FBP22A "Hi-Light". So it must have been installed sometime in the mid or possibly late 60's. What exactly is a "Red Earth Rare Phosphor"?

The 21FBP22-A & 21FJP22-A were introduced in 1964. Since yours is a replacement, chances are that it was made in the mid to late sixties, or even later. The main difference in the "A" version is the use of a rare earth phosphor for the red phosphor. The original used sulphide phosphors for all three colors, but in the "A" version the red phosphor was changed to a yttrium/europium "rare earth" phosphor, providing even higher brightness and truer reds. :cool: The green and blue phosphors in the "A" version remained the original sulphide types.

The 21FBP22-A can be used as a higher performance replacement for the 21FBP22, 21CYP22, and 21AXP22. The 21FJP22-A can also be used if it has been delaminated. :)

...

Andy,

There are almost too many phosphor types to count today. Most of them are synthetic types and highly efficient. Many are made for highly specialized applications. :eek:

The 15GP22 and 21AXP22 of 1954 used sulphide type phosphors that corresponded exactly to the color specifications of the NTSC signal. This produced richly saturated color that is sometimes described as looking like a technicolor movie. Unfortunately, these phosphors were also inefficient (especially the red), producing a low brighness picture best viewed in a dimly lit room. :(

RCA received complaints about the low brightness and attempted to fix it with the 21CYP22 in 1957. Every trick they could think of to increase brightness was applied to that tube, including a more efficient red phosphor. While they did achieve some success at increasing the brightness, the red phosphor looked more like orange and more complaints were received. :mad:

A further attempt to improve the situation was made in 1961 with the 21FBP22 & 21FJP22. Another new, more efficient red phosphor that looked red was used, along with structural changes that equalized beam currents on the 3 guns. The result was better red and more brightness. :)

The final improvement in the round tubes was the use of a new rare earth phosphor (for red only) in the 21FBP22-A & 21FJP22-A in 1964, resulting in yet another brightness increase and improvement of red. :D

Many more changes in color picture tubes followed after the introduction of rectangular types, and have continued right up to the present. To date, nothing has been able to beat the cost effectiveness of the cathode ray tube. :cool:

Dates
 

Getting back to the year of your tube, my 1957 CTC-7 has an RCA 21CYP22 but it has "60" stamped right on the center of the base cap, meaning, I think, that it was made in 1960, three years after the set was built.

I have seen other CYP's on eBay that had 57 stamped in the same spot, more evidence that this is the year of manufacture?

If your tube is an RCA maybe it has a similar stamp or date code, maybe in another location?

Note the tube in this set:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=3638
has 72-17 stamped on it, i.e. 17th week of 1972

Eric,

I think you are right about the date codes. Looks like your set and the one on eBay both have replacement RCA tubes.

The 1958 Allied Radio catalog does not list the 21CYP22 or 15GP22, but the 21AXP22 appears with a list price of $160 and net of $127.40. The metal cone type 27MP4 is only 93 cents less!

21cyp22
 

humm..I always thought it was just the opposite about the red phosphor in these tubes,i had always thought it was the 21fbp22 that had orangeish reds and the 21cyp22 that had truer reds..
if this is true then i will stop my hunt for a 21cyp22 ..
interesting...
terry

Isn't the most up-to-date round tube the 21GVP22? (there is also one designated as 19V...something, from when the viewable image area began to be used in the designation). My RCA service manual lists all of the different round types, with their properties and necessary changes to make for upgrades, through the 21GVP22. It is listed as having a rare-earth red phosphor with unity current ratios. I had one in a set I just bought, but it was arcing, so could not determine how it looked (this 21GVP22 was a replacement made in 1969). The date code is listed on the label for the tubes I have.

Re: Dates
 

I think you are right about the date codes. The date code on my RCA CRT in the Curtis Mathes reads 66-35, which would mean 35th week of 1966... and this would coincide the rest of dates stamped inside the set.

Hey Eric, good catch, my tube is marked 66-09, which means my tube was probably installed sometime later on in 1966.

wasnt the 19vabp22 the last roundie tube upgrade?
thought i remembered installing a few.
they even had the black matrix treatment iirc

Just in time to watch "Batman" no doubt :D

The colors on that show are still eye popping!

19VABP22 is listed as a rectangular. Perhaps you were thinking of a similar number? The only roundies I can find listed with a number starting with 19 are the 19VP22 (CBS) and 19TP22 (DuMont) both from 1954.

Chad,

I found listings for 21GUP22 and 21GVP22. They are electrically identical with each other. Both have rare-earth red phosphors. The only difference appears to be that the 21GVP22 has an anti-reflective faceplate (laminated?) These types are similar to the 21FJP22-A except they have higher G1 and G2 voltages listed.

Aren't these types Zenith tubes? IIrc, Zenith made their own tubes and used numbers different from RCA's in their round tube sets. I do not remember RCA supplying tubes with these type numbers.

Using multiple sources these are all of the round tubes I can find listings for:

15GP22 /RCA /1954 /flat plate screen
19TP22 /DuMont /1954 /curved faceplate screen
19VP22 /CBS /1954 /curved faceplate screen
21AXP22 /RCA /1954 /metal cone, curved faceplate
21AXP22-A /RCA /1956 /multiple improvements
21CYP22 /RCA /1957 /all glass, improved brightness
21CYP22-A /RCA /1959 /(?)
21FBP22 /RCA /1961 /equalized beam currents, improved brightness
21FJP22 /RCA /1961 /same with anti-reflection faceplate
21FBP22-A /RCA /1964 /rare-earth red phosphor
21FJP22-A /RCA /1964 /rare-earth red phosphor
21GUP22 / (?) /(196?) /r-e red phosphor
21GVP22 / (?) /(196?) /r-e red phosphor, a-r faceplate

The 21GVP22 I have is branded RCA with a date code of 1969---perhaps could it be actually made by Zenith but labled RCA?
Also I'm sure there is a 19V-type 21 inch round tube made in the late 60's or in the 70's. It is listed in the 1974 GE tube manual. I'll have to double check the number later today.

...

Andy,

You are correct. I overlooked the 21FKP22 and 21GYP22 in my search. They are also listed in the GE tube manual. I can find no information about which manufacturer introduced these types, or what year.

Also, the CBS 15HP22 and 19 inch Colorton 205.

21CYP22
 

This is the original 21CYP22 jug in my 1959 CTC9N, remote model.
Great discussion! I am a former RCA Service Co. Tech. I now teach Major Appliance Repair. Those are great backround shots!

21CYP22
 

Hmmm . . . . the red certainly does look red in this shot. Is your tube the "A" version?

21cyp22A
 

i am confused about what tubes produce a proper red,i had read someplace last year that the 21fb22 was the one with a more reddish orange phospher,i had a ctc-9 that had a 21cyp22A and i looked at the red closly and thought that it had perfect red,while doing purity,i looked at my ctc-7 with a 21fp22 and of course it is perfect red also. (but much brighter than the 21cyp22) .and no i am not color blind!!
i have been searching for a 21cyp22 to install in my ctc-7 to make it original,but if the 21cyp22 version is really the one with poor red then i will just keep the 21fb22 installed..
terry

Terry,

I once had a CTC7 with a 21CYP22, and the reds looked orange. I have also seen that orange-looking red on some later Zenith sets, including some with rectangular tubes.

The 21CYP22 was the first RCA tube that deviated from the NTSC-correct color phosphors. One thing that was done was to shift the color temperature of the mix more toward blue, which appears brighter to the eye. A new red phosphor was used also, supposedly the one that looked orange. I'm wondering if they changed that phosphor again in later versions, to one that looked red. Another thing was to make the holes in the mask larger near the center of the screen, making the center brighter, which tricks the eye so that the entire screen appears brighter.

No matter what type of phosphors are used in a color picture tube, they are all given the same EIA registration number "P22", regardless of material, color temperature or efficiency, making it impossible to determine what is in a particular tube. If you want a 21CYP22 for your set, I would suggest viewing a picture on it first. If you are satisfied with how it looks, then buy it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I always understood that the red phosphor being true to NTSC standards in the color locus chart was identified by the ability of the set to produce yellow. Ever notice it is impossible to get a good yellow on standard color bars on most color sets?

Rob

Rob,
I notice the Yellow in your Avatar pic is perfect, so what tube is that?

Come to think of it I guess that means the CRT in my Monitor has a good Red phosphor also? :p:

21CYP22
 

The photo that I pasted is not the "A" tube.

When viewed next to a 21FBP22, the brightness is much less.
THe FBP is in a 1961 CTC 11, original tube.

I have a CTC7 (Anderson) that has the 21CYP22A, with a 1961 date code. The brightness is not that great on that tube either, although the emission is good.

I have a 1964 21FJP22A Hi-Lite that has cataract, but great emission. I am going to remove the faceplace (thus making it a FBP, and put it in the CTC7. I will take before and after digital photos to see the difference. I will post them for all to compare.

Kirk Out;)

Eric,

It is near as good yellow as you'll generally see but it ain't perfect. It is a touch towards green, the normal problem. It is a 21FJP22A after cataract surgery in a CTC-20 set. Emission is perfect and the chroma demod board (many 6GH8's) had just been tuned according to the RCA book with a scope.

Rob

Re: 21CYP22
 

Kirk,

Do you have a set with a good 15GP22 or 21AXP22? If so, I would very much like to know how the reds compare between those tubes and the 21CY and 21FB, as well as the 1964 21FB rare-earth version. Do any of the later ones look less red, and if so which one?

The brightness differences you mentioned are what I had observed in the past, but there seems to be some confusion remaining as to which type looked orange. One thing for sure: when you see that orange phosphor, you will know it. It looks TERRIBLE! :mad: