Motorola roundie

[timmy]

Why is it some colors are alittle bit different from a flat tv to a crt tv

[Yamamaya42]

Originally Posted by timmy

Why is it some colors are alittle bit different from a flat tv to a crt tv

NTSC= Never Twice the Same Color.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by timmy

Why is it some colors are alittle bit different from a flat tv to a crt tv

Multiple reasons.

1) The picture tube primary colors (phosphors) were changed over time from the original NTSC standards to get brighter pictures (the green saw the largest changes, but blue changed significantly also. The red changed slightly; the strongest change was toward orange in the all-sulfide tubes.
2) TV manufacturers made proprietary changes to the color circuits to partially compensate for the phosphor changes
3) TVs for a long time used a quite cyan white balance, to reduce the load on the red electron gun, due to the relative inefficiency of red phospors
4) meanwhile, TV cameras were designed to make good pictures with the newer phosphors, so there were two rather uncontrolled adjustments in the system, at the camera and in the receiver.

5) Finally! PAL and HDTV settled on the correct circuitry in cameras and receivers for the new phosphors, which also became the sRGB standard for computer images (jpg files).

[timmy]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

Multiple reasons.

1) The picture tube primary colors (phosphors) were changed over time from the original NTSC standards to get brighter pictures (the green saw the largest changes, but blue changed significantly also. The red changed slightly; the strongest change was toward orange in the all-sulfide tubes.
2) TV manufacturers made proprietary changes to the color circuits to partially compensate for the phosphor changes
3) TVs for a long time used a quite cyan white balance, to reduce the load on the red electron gun, due to the relative inefficiency of red phospors
4) meanwhile, TV cameras were designed to make good pictures with the newer phosphors, so there were two rather uncontrolled adjustments in the system, at the camera and in the receiver.

5) Finally! PAL and HDTV settled on the correct circuitry in cameras and receivers for the new phosphors, which also became the sRGB standard for computer images (jpg files).

Interesting , lots of changes just for tv.

[Yamamaya42]

That, and you can't really compare the two, as they are vastly different techs. ( all joking about NTSC aside! :P )

With the vintage set, there will always be variations, no two CRTs are exactly alike, nor is any chassis, even if of the same make mo#, change a tube, and it will act slightly different.
And with NTSC, there is the infamous TINT control, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tint_control.
Always a source of fun to get JUST RIGHT!

But as things went over to flat/digital, these variations became almost, but not quite non existent between sets and other makes models of flat screen sets, a very keen discerning educated eye can still see differences, but to the average person, they look very much alike these days.

[timmy]

Originally Posted by Yamamaya42

That, and you can't really compare the two, as they are vastly different techs. ( all joking about NTSC aside! :P )

With the vintage set, there will always be variations, no two CRTs are exactly alike, nor is any chassis, even if of the same make mo#, change a tube, and it will act slightly different.
And with NTSC, there is the infamous TINT control, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tint_control.
Always a source of fun to get JUST RIGHT!

But as things went over to flat/digital, these variations became almost, but not quite non existent between sets and other makes models of flat screen sets, a very keen discerning educated eye can still see differences, but to the average person, they look very much alike these days.

Well I hate flat panel tvs the color even looks fake and to me it’s kind of hard on the eyes. And no more crt tvs is really a lot of crap them saying hazardous materials there is more crap burning diesel fuel and not everyone goes by the recycling program I think it was just a new technology they wanted to get out there.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by timmy

Well I hate flat panel tvs the color even looks fake and to me it’s kind of hard on the eyes. And no more crt tvs is really a lot of crap them saying hazardous materials there is more crap burning diesel fuel and not everyone goes by the recycling program I think it was just a new technology they wanted to get out there.

Actually, modern flat screens have much better color than the old CRT sets, IF you turn off the "lighthouse" default sales-floor mode and set them to a calibrated mode. This is especially true because of the much better contrast (consistent, blacker blacks) of flat panel sets.
This was not true with the very early flat sets because makers had not gotten the hang of compensating the extreme non-linearity of LCDs to match the ideally smooth non-linearity of CRTs.

[dtvmcdonald]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

Actually, modern flat screens have much better color than the old CRT sets, IF you turn off the "lighthouse" default sales-floor mode and set them to a calibrated mode. This is especially true because of the much better contrast (consistent, blacker blacks) of flat panel sets.
This was not true with the very early flat sets because makers had not gotten the hang of compensating the extreme non-linearity of LCDs to match the ideally smooth non-linearity of CRTs.

I would not say that the color itself of the new flat screens is much better.
It is the basic light intensity curves, which are obvious in B&W. The perfection of gray scale if of course better too. That's because they are all adjustable ... but most people don't do it. And in many cases the default so-called "correct" setting is artificially far to dim (to match the default too-dim screens of movie theaters).

I can and have gotten my old Sony Bravia and my CT-100 to be essentially perfect matches by adjusting the Sony gamma to match that of the CT-100,
which is not ideal. IF you adjust the Sony to the correct gamma, you can get either mid-tone hues to match, or high-tone hues to match, but not both at once. This is with the Sony hues correct. I can do the same with my high-end Dell "Photoshop edit" monitor. This is with the one additional adjustment I added to my CT-100 color matrix, which gives complete control. The correct setting is within the standard resistor tolerances, but noticeably off the nominal value.

The difficult hues are in the yellow vs yellow-green and purple vs. violet areas.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by dtvmcdonald

...This is with the one additional adjustment I added to my CT-100 color matrix, which gives complete control...

What adjustment did you add?

[Alex KL-1]

Originally Posted by dtvmcdonald

I would not say that the color itself of the new flat screens is much better.
It is the basic light intensity curves, which are obvious in B&W. The perfection of gray scale if of course better too. That's because they are all adjustable ... but most people don't do it. And in many cases the default so-called "correct" setting is artificially far to dim (to match the default too-dim screens of movie theaters).

I can and have gotten my old Sony Bravia and my CT-100 to be essentially perfect matches by adjusting the Sony gamma to match that of the CT-100,
which is not ideal. IF you adjust the Sony to the correct gamma, you can get either mid-tone hues to match, or high-tone hues to match, but not both at once. This is with the Sony hues correct. I can do the same with my high-end Dell "Photoshop edit" monitor. This is with the one additional adjustment I added to my CT-100 color matrix, which gives complete control. The correct setting is within the standard resistor tolerances, but noticeably off the nominal value.

The difficult hues are in the yellow vs yellow-green and purple vs. violet areas.

And, in the transmissive displays, the color converges to gray at low light scenes due to light leakage (loses color space). Is more obvious when compare against OLED.

Granted is the better quality on newer panels, allied with 100-point adjusting and internal processing. But is amusing to compare that very refined and advanced device against a simple and humble CRT color TV using all tube tech... if we consider all differences, is a miracle the results achieved by the old techs

[Alex KL-1]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

Actually, modern flat screens have much better color than the old CRT sets, IF you turn off the "lighthouse" default sales-floor mode and set them to a calibrated mode. This is especially true because of the much better contrast (consistent, blacker blacks) of flat panel sets.
This was not true with the very early flat sets because makers had not gotten the hang of compensating the extreme non-linearity of LCDs to match the ideally smooth non-linearity of CRTs.

Well noted about the sales-floor mode. Even OLED comes with some saturated thing to catch the consumer... in my OLED, I apllied only well-carefully adjust settings. It also have 100 point adjusting, like the LCD, for shaping the display curve response.

But then, we can calibrate a CRT device for true black levels and great contrast, but is more challenging due to simplified nature of the beast.
More modern CRT TV having "AKB" will stabilize the black point and color balance, and produces outstanding contrast picture with true black at same time, only seen in OLED TV's, since OLED are emissive display like CRT, with the advantage of independent asembled pixels free of focus, halation and moiré effects.

But, in the end, owners of the calibrated CRT will challenge this contrast issue, at least for very contrasted scenes: the light leaking from LCD and alike (LED, QLED) interferes with the result: one black image immediately adjacent to a white block will have light leaking (gray result). The CRT with black matrix will have a very dark result at same scene, and OLED completely dark.
I seen it even in hi-end QLED, even in the letterbox bar, when not coincides to light zone. In my aforementioned CRT TV, and in my Sony CRT monitor, I'm able to achieve 100% black here, and also abvously in my OLED TV.

And, the run-of-the-mill LCD have very noticeable light leakage even in today models, but consumer are used to it.

[Yamamaya42]

For all practical purposes, CRTs were/are hazardous waste, they made millions of them, w/o any foresight to recycle them, so they get tossed out and end up in land fills, many of them have lead and other heavy metals, these are items of this type that went down this path, nor should they be condemned because of this, really.

[Electronic M]

It's been argued here before by others that lead is added to glass through vitrification and that nuclear waste is safely disposed of by vitrification into glass and that if the process is good enough for nuclear waste it should be fine for lead. As I understand it you won't really be getting much out of lead glass unless you grind it up and chemically break down the glass in something like acid.

Just repeating material from previous posters in topics I find interesting...

[etype2]

I’ve posted this once prior, which is an excellent power point presentation by ISF (Imaging Science Foundation), and I think pertinent to the current discussion of this thread.

The industry moved to better calibration of consumer sets perhaps, the early 2000’s.

https://visions4netjournal.com/wp-co...-2017-33.3.pdf

[old_tv_nut]

I'm surprised that only one adjustment was needed.

With the fixed matrix resistors, you can adjust I/Q relative phase and the COLOR control to compensate for errors in one color matrix, say red. Then you still need I and Q gain adjustments in both green and blue to get them perfect, so that's four additional adjustments total.
If you insist on the I and Q waveforms being exactly correct, then you need I/Q ratio adjustments for errors in all three matrices, plus luma vs chroma gain adjustment in two of them, so that's five additional adjustments.
As you say, these adjustments can be avoided by the use of precision resistors in the matrices.