Oz color difference

[earlyfilm]

Originally Posted by colorfixer

I would point toward a really old, faded print used in the video transfer and a tech that did what they could to make up for a trash print at the time.

Modern video transfers are usually created from film masters and not from prints.

I'd say there are multiple causes for the differences in the two frame captures.

The set labeled "BYE TO OZ_CTC4(Small)", is out of convergence especially in the lower right quadrant and has the color level set very high and the contrast is slightly high.

The image labeled "BYE TO OZ_wierd color(Medium)" seems to have both color and contrast set very low and the hue adjusted very green.

I also suspect that both are not from the same restoration of the film. Each restoration of this title has produced quite different colors. This film was shot with three strip Technicolor (three B&W negatives) and therefore when MGM restored the film there is a huge latitude in color available. Neither shot comes close to the colors that an original Technicolor imbibition color print would have had.

Then the 1939 Technicolor IB prints did not match the circa 1954 Technicolor reissue prints, because of changes in the dyes used. Modern Eastman color prints will have a still different look, and if you see this in a theater today, the digital projection will be different still! (For the record: I've seen both an original circa 1954 Technicolor IB print projected and a modern digital print projected.)

In short, the primary colors used in Technicolor prints, Eastman color prints, NTSC and HD, and theatrical projection, all are slightly different, so when you do the conversion, something is always lost.

Then when you get to the digital camera, it often automatically color corrects to what its dumb computer thinks the picture should be.


Then if you look at these two pictures on two different computers, I'll bet the results are also different.

James.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by earlyfilm

I'd say there are multiple causes for the differences in the two frame captures.

James.

You took (all) the words out of my mouth.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by earlyfilm

...Then the 1939 Technicolor IB prints did not match the circa 1954 Technicolor reissue prints, because of changes in the dyes used... James.

Have you seen any technical information on the differences in the dyes, especially actual spectral density curves? Technicolor seems never to have published any detailed info, keeping it proprietary to the end.

I have done the calculations of the color range of known dye sets, to the point of generating sRGB output that can be displayed on a computer monitor.

I will be showing this as part of my presentation at the Early Television Convention, and would love to present bona fide Technicolor as part of it.

[Penthode]

I am assuming that the DVD video sources are different. But this has not been confirmed.

Can you identify with more specific detail the DVD's used?

[wa2ise]

and I first thought, when I saw the thread title, we'd be talking about colour TV in Australia aka Oz. That Australia used PAL and not NTSC...

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by wa2ise

and I first thought, when I saw the thread title, we'd be talking about colour TV in Australia aka Oz. That Australia used PAL and not NTSC...

"Colour" in English-speaking countries, "color" in the US.

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

"Colour" in English-speaking countries, "color" in the US.

Glad to see that a US citizen recognises that his land is not one where English is spoke

See this excellent video for further information on the subject. I am well aware that the lipsync and flutter leave a lot to be desired. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

[earlyfilm]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

Have you seen any technical information on the differences in the dyes, especially actual spectral density curves? Technicolor seems never to have published any detailed info, keeping it proprietary to the end.

Wayne,

As far as color curves, for Technicolor, I'm not aware of any being published.

Technicolor patented the earlier (late 20's early 30's) single-strip two-color version of Technicolor, and in doing so described the complete process. Kalmus always thought that he accidentally gave away the store, by making it easier for his competitors to duplicate his results and eventually improve on them.

So, later when Technicolor patented the improved three strip version, he patented the process as a whole, but intentionally left out many key details.

Today, it is easy to color correct a Technicolor print digitally, but the biggest problem today is that the younger color correction people have never seen an original Technicolor print and usually get it way too beefy.

In pre-digital days, I occasionally had to make made photographic copies of Technicolor prints where the originals had been lost or damaged and until you actually do tests on each and every job, you can never tell how the color used in the dyes will react on color negative film. This almost always required either a negative contrast mask or a specific color flash or both to keep the color acceptable.

James.