DuMont Westminster Series II 1951

[kx250rider]

I've been a vintage electronics nut since the mid-1970s, and never seen a 16 rpm record. I was curious how so many changers had the speed, but no records. I had heard that they were some kind of specialty record not for music, and I didn't know if any were ever cut. Reece might have answered this! Usually a "hopeful, but never-to-make-market item like that will only be mentioned for a year or two on whatever the host item is... Such as the brief period when we had AM-Stereo in the early 80s, and before the RCA-CBS color TV war was over in '53, there were a lot of '51-'52 black & white TV sets sold with "color adaptor" sockets. That would have been for the CBS color system, or other mechanical color systems like Col-R-Tel.

Charles

[jeyurkon]

You can find a few 16 rpms on eBay. They seemed to have quite a few more last year. I only see one with music. The others are narrations of the bible.

John

[jr_tech]

I found an interesting thread here on a record forum:

http://bsnpubs.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=84340

Which contains a link to a paper with info on 16 2/3 rpm records (about 2/3 of the way through the paper):

http://78rpmrecord.com/altformat.htm

Many different formats of 16 rpm records seem to have preceded the "Highway Hi-Fi", including some as large as 22" for background music. Dr Goldmark perhaps was the first to use the very fine pitch groves ( 0.25 mil stylus). I think that I once saw a boxed set of 16 2/3 records mixed in with boxed sets of 45s... these records had a huge center hole, about the size of the label on a 45. Guess I should have bought the set.

But, getting back to the DuMont, That is a GREAT find (even if the changer does not play all 4 record speeds that were available at the time ! ) I am still stumped about the tape deck, the head and pinch roller covers resemble the shape of those used by Tandberg, but the photo does not appear to match early Tandberg machines. Did DuMont make the deck? It will be interesting to see if there is any identification on the unit itself.
jr

[leadlike]

Our local Goodwill had the bible on 16 rpm a few years back-pressed on clear red vinyl, the discs numbered in the hundreds.

[Tubejunke]

Seems like I remember using 16 RPM records in grade school. They may have been the ones that were the same outside diameter as a regular 45 RPM, but had the 1/4" spindle hole like a 33 or 78 RPM.

[Dave A]

Update. The Westminster was picked up today and is safely in it's new home in New Jersey...but not my home. I looked at my backed up repairs waiting to happen and decided it was too much for me. There are already three color sets in the living room and no space big enough for the beast is the rest of the house. But fear not, another AKer got it. Amplico-kid now has a full-time job ahead of him restoring it. Best of luck Bob and keep us posted on how it goes.

[cbenham]

What a great find! I hope it is completely restorable. If you want to add a color wheel to this set it will need to be 46-1/2 inches diameter.

The tape recorder is an "International Electronics Model P-3" found in Sams 88-4. This is for the mechanism only, so I think the record - play electronics would have been designed by Du Mont.

The record player is a "Webster-Chicago Model 100" found in Sams 135-14. Hope this helps and I have these folders if you need them.
Cliff

[Dave A]

Clif,

You have made every variety of color wheels for other projects. Give this one a try! Bob may have a spectacular color set on his pickup truck. Actually, I would like to see the schematic of whatever was supposed to do the color trick.

The tape and turntable info is most helpful for getting it back to 1951. The turntable drawer seem to pull only about 2/3 of the way out and makes loading records a bit of a challenge.

I opted out as I looked more closely at my RA-109 and having a spare CRT, I decided to go with it. Maybe I can mount my "color tv" plastic sheet on it.

Dave A

[Ampico-kid]

Originally Posted by Dave A

Update. The Westminster was picked up today and is safely in it's new home in New Jersey...but not my home. I looked at my backed up repairs waiting to happen and decided it was too much for me. There are already three color sets in the living room and no space big enough for the beast is the rest of the house. But fear not, another AKer got it. Amplico-kid now has a full-time job ahead of him restoring it. Best of luck Bob and keep us posted on how it goes.

Thank you Dave for giving me the opportunity to own this incredible contraption. I've been looking it over and although not the next in line to be restored, I'm already formulating my plan of attack. I think this one's going to be a lot of fun (and time). I can't believe the size of this thing! It almost comes up to my chest and I stand 6' tall. I'm also looking forward to working on the tape deck. I spent almost 30 years repairing all kinds of tape units, but I don't think I ever came across this particular machine. I always like working on something new and different. This DuMont is going to be an interesting and educational experience. Thank you Dave for making it happen.

Clif, this whole color wheel discussion has me intrigued, but I have to plead ignorance about the whole thing, except for the basics. The color wheel idea was all just a little before my time.

What's involved to construct a "color wheel", and how does it work? Would it be practical to construct one large enough for this set? I assume it would sit on top of the TV cabinet? How expensive it something like this? How well might it be expected to work?

Thanks for the information.....

Bob

[cbenham]

Originally Posted by Dave A

Clif, I would like to see the schematic of whatever was supposed to do the color trick. Dave A

Hi Dave,
The Du Mont Royal Sovereign also has this 'color converter' output jack on the rear of the chassis.

In the RA-119 schematic this is a cathode follower output from the 1st video amp after the detector, so it's a composite video signal output for color.

This is just a guess, but if this were for a CBS color conversion, which seems logical since this is a set from 1950-51, the RA-116 output would probably be intended to feed a CBS 'Slave Receiver' rather than a converter chassis and a BIG wheel for the RA-116.

Given Du Mont's disdain for the CBS system I can't imagine them building a working CBS wheel adaptor 5 feet in diameter and modifying the set's sweeps
to accomplish this. See the Du Mont CBS color wheel 'mockup' [attached].

However, all things are possible, and it is feasable to build a wheel for a 19 inch CRT and drive the set with one of Darryl's SCRF-525M-SC [Col-R-Tel] converters. Not CBS color but high quality field sequential color and a show stopper.

[Disclaimer to all: I'm just a very satisfied customer and not otherwise connected to Darryl's converter factory.]

Cliff

[cbenham]

Originally Posted by Ampico-kid

What's involved to construct a "color wheel", and how does it work? Would it be practical to construct one large enough for this set? I assume it would sit on top of the TV cabinet? How expensive it something like this? How well might it be expected to work? Bob

Making color on this set can be done most easily with the ready-to-fly converter mentioned in the post to Dave. This works by feeding a DVD player or other video source like a set top box into the converter, then tuning in the converter's CH 4 output using the Du Mont's tuner.

Now you need a wheel spinning at 600 RPM in front of the CRT. A color wheel for a 19 inch CRT will need to be about 46 inches in diameter to allow viewers seated left and right of the screen to get a full color view. A nice woodwork cabinet to hide the wheel and the mechanics is a good idea and it keeps pets, kids, and some adults away from the spinning disk. The circuitry to spin and sync the wheel to the color phasing pulse is not difficult and can be built using just transistors if you want to avoid ICs. Hope this helps.

All this begsthe question: Will it become appropriate at some point to move this discussion to the vintage color section?

Cliff

[cbenham]

Originally Posted by cbenham

See the Du Mont CBS color wheel 'mockup' [attached]. Cliff

The attachment didn't make it, probably because it has been posted previously
in another thread. I'll try again. This image is courtesy of John Folsom.
Cliff

[cbenham]

If you are interested in building a color converter and wheel for your B&W TV set, the following will be found a very useful guide. Information on NTSC color converters from 1955 is available by clicking on the links below to the Early Television Foundation Museum website. Examples of both converters in full working condition are on display at the ETF Museum in Hilliard Ohio.

The first is the 'Colordaptor' which was described in a R/E magazine construction article. You had to build the electronic converter and the color wheel from scratch, although the authors made some parts available via mail order.
http://www.earlytelevision.org/colordaptor.html

The second is the Col-R-Tel converter, a complete, ready to install converter chassis and wheel system that sold then for $150.00. It could be installed on a set in an afternoon. Quite a number of these units are still operating today.
http://www.earlytelevision.org/col-r-tel.html

The avitar above is of my Col-R-Tel bought in 1960, restored and installed on a Philco 12 inch 50T-1403 about 3 years ago.
Cliff