Color differences-NBC NY vs NBC Burbank

[vallieone]

Anyone ever notice the difference in color transmission from programs originating from NBC New York vs NBC Burbank?

The New York colorcasts seemed to have a greenish tinge especially on dark haired individuals or black objects such as a piano. Examples are the video form Peter Pan, Bell Telephone Hour video clips etc.

The Burbank colorcasts had a purpleish or redish tinge to it as exampled by the Dean Martin Show and Laugh In shows.

Watching some of the old videos I can be pretty certain of the studio where it originated just by the color.

Anyone know why?

George

Thanks

[batterymaker]

Maybe it was the setup in each piece of equipment.

I'll do you one better--I remember each network had their own "sound" quality--must've had something to do with the transmission on the phone networks. Used to be as a kid, I could tell what network was on just by hearing the audio.

[old_tv_nut]

Ther was some discussion along these lines here before. There is no doubt that Burbank ssemed to be able to milk the best performance out of the TK-41s. More consistent color, less misregistration etc. There also has been talk about the "California tan" look preferred on the West coast, but that may have had something to do with makeup as well.

Regarding green hair: the original TK-41 flat-mirror optics were quite sensitive to light polarization, and backlight reflecting off hair or horizontal surfaces went more to the green channel. I don't recall if this was reduced when the flat mirrors were replaced by a prism assembly. Later articles on Plumbicon camera design mention designing the prism block with angles that reduced polarization.

[old_tv_nut]

Well, I can't find "a discussion along these lines", so perhaps it was a private one. Still I think there was general agreement that Burbank color was more consistent than New York.

[Steve Hoffman]

Didn't it depend on where you lived? In those days if you lived in LA the shows coming over the "line" had a much different look than the local Burbank KNBC shows..

[Dave A]

Steve H may be part way there. It would be interesting to learn how NBC fed the network for LA based shows in the early color days. Did it go direct to NY and then back out to the network or did ATT Long Lines reverse the feed and originate from LA? Either way, that signal had to be handled multiple times by ATT by their equipment. And how many times did it get amped to cross the time zones with short hop coax or microwave hops when it became available? I can see how the good signal from one coast degraded by the time it got to the other coast and give a difference in origination color and the final home color.

"It looks good leaving here."

I have seen the differences Vallieone describes on those same shows and I do not think it has anything to do with NY vs. LA...aside from the "tan" look. I am assuming they did talk to each other. Even accounting for transmission errors, you are still looking at the original camera differences. Transmission is going to treat all errors equally. The shows noted are for the most part from the originals and transmisson is not a factor so I would be looking at the video ops.

To me, mirror or prism is going to end up with some kind of black response in a wide swath across the screen. The first concern was always white balance. Black balance was always the red-headed stepchild.

From there it is up to the video op to make it black...no green/black or some such. Did each camera have it's own video op in the day with their own idea of color? Not the case today. One op for six cameras or so and all automated anyway.

And it is a challenge to decide if Dean Martin was wearing a dark blue jacket or a black jacket. Black adjustments could make it either way.

Steve K and Chuck P...step in to help me or correct me.

[Steve K]

Dave:

I think that you mean Steve D. He's the one who worked at the television studios.

Steve K.

[Steve Hoffman]

When I was in school in 1970 I wrote a big story for our newspaper about TV news broadcasting. Big deal but the crux of it was I got to hang out at the news Dept's of KTLA, KTTV, KNXT, KNBC and even KCOP, meeting the anchors, writers and basically hang around the cameras. At NBC I remember well that they still had all the old ROUNDIE monitors everywhere and the old cameras. I couldn't believe it, actually, having seen the Norelco PC-60 cameras at CBS. The NBC cameras looked totally giant. In the NBC, Burbank master control they had a "TO" and "FROM" set of CTC-16s. To the transmitter and from the transmitter. Even there you could clearly see the signal variations and loss from the in-house to the broadcast signal. We got to watch the Tonight Show feed coming in from NYC being taped on the ancient QUAD machine and the quality left a lot to be desired.. It was everything they could do to get those breakup "bars" off the screen. And of course the sound was 5k at best, totally low fi.

Looking back in my mind I find it amazing in the 1970's that they were still using those old 41's for everything, even the local news. They must have had crews aligning those things 24/7.

[Dave A]

Steve K,

I stand corrected...Steve D, save me.

[Aussie Bloke]

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

When I was in school in 1970 I wrote a big story for our newspaper about TV news broadcasting. Big deal but the crux of it was I got to hang out at the news Dept's of KTLA, KTTV, KNXT, KNBC and even KCOP, meeting the anchors, writers and basically hang around the cameras. At NBC I remember well that they still had all the old ROUNDIE monitors everywhere and the old cameras. I couldn't believe it, actually, having seen the Noralco '66 cameras at CBS. The NBC cameras looked totally giant. In the NBC, Burbank master control they had a "TO" and "FROM" set of CTC-16s. To the transmitter and from the transmitter. Even there you could clearly see the signal variations and loss from the in-house to the broadcast signal. We got to watch the Tonight Show feed coming in from NYC being taped on the ancient QUAD machine and the quality left a lot to be desired.. It was everything they could do to get those breakup "bars" off the screen. And of course the sound was 5k at best, totally low fi.

Looking back in my mind I find it amazing in the 1970's that they were still using those old 41's for everything, even the local news. They must have had crews aligning those things 24/7.

Thanks for sharing us your experience with the TV networks. As being fascinated with the first colour TV cameras the TK-41s I'm always digging out information on them over the net and yes those old silver beasts were still used well into the 1970s. I know ABC Wide World Of Sports still used those cameras into the early 70s, examples can be seen in these YouTube clips http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4_CIXV4R14 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3TaFUPQim4 , in the 2nd clip the IO halos are evident from the cars reflecting the sunlight at 1:09 . I also recall Steve Dichter telling me in an email that in some stations those cameras were used up to as late as 1977! So I guess whilst the TK-44s were a little more superior to the TK-41s (i.e no halos and sharper picture), the old 41s were still so damn good that a number of stations were happy to hang onto them for a while longer and still use them, just a guess, or maybe they couldn't afford to upgrade. Going off track a little I've seen a photos on this page http://www.eyesofageneration.com/RCA_Cameras_TK60.php of David Calif’s Vanguard Productions at WGBH using B&W TK-60 cameras in 1980 which is crazy lol but at the same time good as they were keeping technological history alive. Anyhow, that's my take on the prolonged use of the TK-41s.

[Steve D.]

Originally Posted by Dave A

Steve K,

I stand corrected...Steve D, save me.

Being in the production end of things and not so much in engineering I can only comment on my personal observations.
All I know is that the shows mentioned, Peter Pan (1960), Bell Telephone Hour and Dean Martin and all videotape productions at this time were products of 50's & 60's era videotape technology. And no matter how you slice it the tape looked like crap compared to most live and film color telecasts of the same era on all the networks. So many of the technical steps required to transmit a color video tape program from coast to coast as previously posted here by others, only helped to detract from already dubious recorded color quality. Add to the fact that these early color shows were edited by using a razor blade and finally after a couple of generations were loaded on a videotape machine. "Looks ok leaving here" was the standard answer from reasonably bored and complacent technicians at the various monitoring sites watching the banding and jump cut edits roll by. This at a time RCA was trying to convince the public that color TV was natural "living color. At KTLA, where I worked in the 60's & 70's they did go the extra mile in quality control. And hours were spent setting up and maintaining our TK-41's, video tape and film chain equipment. This may seem biased, but I certainly saw a difference in our color transmissions, even, up to a point, KTLA's color video tape broadcasts compared to the network color broadcasts. Slowly by the late 60's early 70's as technology improved and the networks and stations upgraded to the latest equipment the quality of all color transmissions by broadcasters was greatly improved. Even NBC Burbank finally and reluctantly gave up their TK-41's.

-Steve D.

[vallieone]

Thank you for all the responses.

I did forget to mention the "tans" on the Burbank shows. Especially on Dean and Dan Rowan very obvious to the casual viewer.

Not being and engineer or tech savy, one of the responders mentioned break upbars or banding on early video tapes. I was always curious about those slight horizontal bands that would come through on the video of those taped programs and now have a name for that effect. That was the only way I could tell at the time whether a program was live or on tape.

Just recently one of the local cable channels here on Long Island was re-running and old show of Bishop Fulton Sheen that was taped in the late 60's at WNEW in NY using the old Norelco Plumicons but the tape must have been a tape of a tape of a tape and you could see very clearly those horizontal bands just barely making it watchable. Would have loved to have seen a prisitine copy of the show the Plumbicons really could deliver a nice picture.

George

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Steve D.

. At KTLA, where I worked in the 60's & 70's they did go the extra mile in quality control. And hours were spent setting up and maintaining our TK-41's, video tape and film chain equipment. This may seem biased, but I certainly saw a difference in our color transmissions, even, up to a point, KTLA's color video tape broadcasts compared to the network color broadcasts.

-Steve D.

I agree about KTLA (channel 5 here in LA). I remember watching the Shebang dance show sitting in the May Co. Dept. Store in 1965 and the color (zooming up the girls short skirts) was the best looking of anything on at that time...

[WhiteSE]

was all that oldie stuff tube driven or transistorized?

i guess the 40's cameras that steve mentioned most likley tubes...

[Steve D.]

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

I agree about KTLA (channel 5 here in LA). I remember watching the Shebang dance show sitting in the May Co. Dept. Store in 1965 and the color (zooming up the girls short skirts) was the best looking of anything on at that time...

Hey Steve H,

SHEBANG, with host, Casey Kasem, was one of the first shows I worked on at KTLA in 1965. We did videotape it for limited syndication, but it was a live show every late afternoon following our early live newscast on the same stage. Just turned the TK-41's 180°, to the Shebang set, during the 2 minute station break. This was one of the last back to back live TV we did. The crew did enjoy watching the mini skirted, under age, teeny-boppers. The Jackson 5, The Monkees, Sonny & Cher among many others were featured on the show. KTLA had been using both b&w then color video-tape as soon as the technology was available. Even so, they still produced 2 one hour variety shows, live in color, each weekend until 1966. One included live commercials. They both went to videotape shortly thereafter.

-Steve D.